My 2 cents worth on “Brothers Grimm”

3 Stars

Hello all. I am a huge fan of this movie, first of all because I worked at a Cinerama theatre in Wichita, Kansas in 1962 and 1963 and was there for the premieres of both HTWWW and WWOTBG; and secondly, because this movie to me is highly entertaining, well-acted and directed and is, as they say, “one for the ages.” Anyway, does anyone know that there is a group of supporters of this movie called “Friends of the Brothers Grimm?” Some time back they got a petition together, which as far as I know is still on line, getting signatures so that eventually the petition can be submitted to Warner Bros., requesting that “Grimm” be restored (a la HTWWW) and released on BluRay. I am hoping that perhaps David Strohmaier, Cinerama restoration guru, may already be working on this project, since WWOTBG is the only remaining Cinerama film which has not yet been restored. Also, my limited research has revealed that supposedly the only remaining print of this film is owned by a man in Australia; and a 65mm interpositive exists which contains all 3 panels somewhere, plus the negatives, according to some sources, are available and useable! If you haven’t seen some of Mr. Strohmaier’s Cinerama restorations on BluRay, check them out. He has worked many miracles in restoring these great Cinerama productions. So let’s all keep talking about this and keep our fingers crossed that “The Wonderful World of the Brothers Grimm” will truly live again!

Published by

Kevin Collins

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296 Comments

  1. The film certainly has its fans on this forum (including me despite some of its lapses). I signed that petition it seems ages ago. Since Warners controls this movie and it has been made clear to us on many occasions that preparing it for Blu-ray release would be a time consuming and ruinously expensive process, many of us have given up hope of actually seeing it come to BD. Warners never went any farther than laserdisc with it not even granting it a DVD signifying possibly that it was not a big seller for them. (Contrarily, How the West Was Won kept getting released repeatedly from tape to laserdisc to DVD and finally Blu-ray, every time with a transfer superior to what had gone before.)

    So, keeping my fingers crossed that it might one day come to us even if only in streaming form, but not really expecting anything other than what I've already got (the laserdisc).

  2. Count me in for this title. Saw it back in '63 as a kid and LOVED it. I still have the gorgeous yellow hardcover program from that screening. The gentle touch of George Pal is always enchanting and something we could use a lot more of in today's world. So hope we will see it in HD someday soon.

  3. Warners is not going to give this to Dave – why would anyone think such a thing? And yes, one panel (I forget which) is water damaged – who knows how severely, but if it's severe there's probably no way to save it. Then again, Warners has pulled rabbits out of hats before.

  4. haineshisway

    Warners is not going to give this to Dave – why would anyone think such a thing? And yes, one panel (I forget which) is water damaged – who knows how severely, but if it's severe there's probably no way to save it. Then again, Warners has pulled rabbits out of hats before.

    As you know most of us think that it might be better to have Grimm in decent HD quality so you would probably call it wishful thinking that Warner would let somebody else handle Grimm.

    If at some point they had even done a 2k scan of each panel they could give those files away and let somebody have a go with it – all assets would stay in house and people could finally see a version of the movie with decent resolution, even with the water damage.

    Or we can look at it positively and say that Warner is probably hoping for automated techniques to become available that will help with dealing with the panel with the water damage.

    With that being said I would love to finally be able to watch this one but I refuse to watch it in LD or DVD quality.

  5. Maybe if we create a go fund me page and each contribute $10,000 apiece towards that million plus Grimm restoration, it would help. After all, fans of Wonderful World Of The Brothers Grimm would put money where their mouth is, wouldn't we. 😉

  6. Thomas T

    Maybe if we create a go fund me page and each contribute $10,000 apiece towards that million plus Grimm restoration, it would help. After all, fans of Wonderful World Of The Brothers Grimm would put money where their mouth is, wouldn't we. 😉

    If that meant releasing Grimm in another way than the Warner way it might be possible. With the Warner price tag unfortunately not.

    But most of us know that already and then from time to time threads like this one pop up and we go over all of it again 🙂

  7. William Moore

    Hello all. I am a huge fan of this movie, first of all because I worked at a Cinerama theatre in Wichita, Kansas in 1962 and 1963 and was there for the premieres of both HTWWW and WWOTBG; and secondly, because this movie to me is highly entertaining, well-acted and directed and is, as they say, "one for the ages." Anyway, does anyone know that there is a group of supporters of this movie called "Friends of the Brothers Grimm?" Some time back they got a petition together, which as far as I know is still on line, getting signatures so that eventually the petition can be submitted to Warner Bros., requesting that "Grimm" be restored (a la HTWWW) and released on BluRay. I am hoping that perhaps David Strohmaier, Cinerama restoration guru, may already be working on this project, since WWOTBG is the only remaining Cinerama film which has not yet been restored. Also, my limited research has revealed that supposedly the only remaining print of this film is owned by a man in Australia; and a 65mm interpositive exists which contains all 3 panels somewhere, plus the negatives, according to some sources, are available and useable! If you haven't seen some of Mr. Strohmaier's Cinerama restorations on BluRay, check them out. He has worked many miracles in restoring these great Cinerama productions. So let's all keep talking about this and keep our fingers crossed that "The Wonderful World of the Brothers Grimm" will truly live again!

    Well acted? The two male leads were woeful.

  8. I have seen the only 3 panel print of this a few times at Bradford, and the Centre Panel has one of the best focus i have ever seen in a cinema.
    This would look fantastic on 4K UHD but shame about the state of the original neg.

  9. RolandL

    I think WB also has an Ultra Panavision print, but I don't know what the condition is.

    If the 70mm print that I saw of HTWWW is anything to go by it would not matter that much as it would be very soft and worse than a decent 35mm print. It seems that cinerama never really found a way to bring its process to a single film strip in a quality that would compare favorably to even standard 35mm which can also be seen when looking at the first This is Cinerama release on Blu-ray that looked very disappointing.

    That being said I might still be tempted to buy if a Blu-ray was created from that print as it should still look better than the laserdisc version. Or maybe I really need to go to Bradford once to see the real thing…

  10. Robert Harris

    Major physical differences between the two film.

    How is a basically unfaded set of negatives, while Grimm is incomplete and water damaged.

    I’ve not budgeted, but think 1.5 – 1.8 million.

    Mr Harris, do you know if the water damage assertion is definitive or is it just one of those things that's been banded about for years and no-one has properly examined it – was it stored independently or just unlucky?

  11. MarkantonyII

    Mr Harris, do you know if the water damage assertion is definitive or is it just one of those things that's been banded about for years and no-one has properly examined it – was it stored independently or just unlucky?

    I'm not Mr. Harris, but two people here have told you one of the panels is water damaged – we both know whereof we speak. We don't bandy about things 🙂

  12. haineshisway

    I'm not Mr. Harris, but two people here have told you one of the panels is water damaged – we both know whereof we speak. We don't bandy about things 🙂

    Very true, I wasn't casting aspersions, but you did say "…who knows how severely…" which implies if not states that very little examination has taken place, and / or the results of which are not widely known, which leaves the answer wide open to interpretation.

    M

  13. The Grim truth about “Brothers Grimm”

    The ownership and copyright of both dramatic Cinerama titles “HTWWW” and “Brothers Grimm” is shared 50-50 between (formally MGM) now Warner Bros. and Cinerama Inc. As part of the major Cinerama revival efforts done starting in 2000 I have had first hand knowledge of the condition of all the Cinerama elements which include “Brothers Grimm” even though it has been vaulted at Warners. At that time I represented the 50% owner of the title, Gunther Jung, also of Cinerama Inc. and John Sittig, Director of Cinerama Inc. and myself along with Warner’s Dick May, now retired, did several photo chemical tests at Crest labs in 2002 of the water damaged sections and the availability and condition of the o-neg elements. I had received a copy thru Dick of the 1995 o-negative inspection reports where multiple problems such as this damage was listed. A little less than half of the rolls had notations of moderate to severe water damage due to a flood in one of the vaults years earlier. We did print up one small 300 foot section of a water damaged panel and found that the damage was mostly on the left edge, but other rolls could be on different sides. We also found there were a few rolls of missing o-negatives, but we never got around to checking on the YCM separation masters to see if they were complete or not. We had found earlier that the Cinerama travelogues did not all have complete sep. masters so perhaps Grimm has them complete?

    Assuming the sep masters are complete then yes a restoration could be accomplished on “Grimm” however just imagine the expense of 9 B&W film frame elements (Y-C-M x3) to create 1 Cinerama 3-panel frame on the screen. Then if there is any shrinkage problems of the Y-C-M elements (as in misregistration) you would have one huge budget problem or the most expensive restoration/scanning job ever to end up with digital elements such as we have done with the travelogues.

    On our Cinerama travelogue restorations we were fortunate to have the Library of Congress 3-panel deposit Eastmancolor faded prints available to scan our missing sections and then rebuild back the color, however as I understand it from my pals at LOC there is no 3-panel 6-perf IB prints of “Grimm” on deposit which could possibly fill in any missing and damaged areas. They only have the 35mm scope general release version.

    Is “Brothers Grimm” digitally restorable? I would say the answer is possibly but a very hesitant yes. However it should be understood that it might not look as pristine as “HTWWW”. FYI -the o-negs on “HTWWW” were in excellent condition when we started printing up the answer print at Crest labs back in 2001. Warner Brother’s digital transfer work was started in 2006 from this same element for the blue ray release in the fall of 2008. This neg did not need very much clean up or digital restoration work. Blending the 3-panels back together again was a major part of that work.

    The reason I say possibly yes is that after our “Windjammer” Cinemiracle experience – dealing with such severe damage, shrinkage, fading, dirt, chemical blotches, warpage, missing panels vinegar syndrome and even entire rolls missing, nothing can ever scare me again. “Windjammer” turned out better than we could ever have imagined.

    In a nutshell -this is how I would approach “Grimm” without a 1.5+ mil budget: For starters carefully scan the Bradford UK IB tech 3-panel Cinerama 6 perf. print as well as some IB Tech 6 perf. elements we have recently located in Sweden. Then add in what is still usable of the o-negs favoring them where possible. In areas that simply cannot be saved then go from the YCM seps. Perhaps as a last resort, for troubled areas, use the 65mm IP, an optical created from the 3-panels at Metrocolor labs in the 1960s, this apparently has no cropping on the sides. If that element is used then attempt some better panel blending tricks on the optical printer join areas.

    Then a very slow and difficult 3-panel blending operation, clean up, dust busting and flicker removal. Finally the blending (color and density etc.) of the various composite 3-panel source materials to facilitate in minimizing the “checkerboard” look of these different elements. Thus make it as close as possible to appear like it’s all from one basic source. A challenge for sure!

  14. I was hoping friend Dave would finally chime in because he is where I got my information and I knew he had it right. I doubt Warners will give anything to him to do, which is a shame in a way, but the budget if he did would still be substantial. But I have learned with Warners that you can't second guess anything.

  15. Thank you so much, David, for that intricate and illuminating survey on the elements available and the difficulty in potentially dealing with them should the powers-that-be give it a go. Sounds daunting but not impossible and gives us fans of the film some small reason to hope something might be done with the film at some future date (though I might not be alive to see it happen).

  16. I remember seeing this in a theatre as a boy in the 70s. It was a reissue and I can remember it was badly faded then with a pinkish brownish look. Since the negatives are water-damaged, maybe they could find some kind of print still in existence and do their best on it — please just preserve it for future generations and let us have a decent HD version.

  17. Strohmaier

    The Grim truth about “Brothers Grimm”

    The ownership and copyright of both dramatic Cinerama titles “HTWWW” and “Brothers Grimm” is shared 50-50 between (formally MGM) now Warner Bros. and Cinerama Inc. As part of the major Cinerama revival efforts done starting in 2000 I have had first hand knowledge of the condition of all the Cinerama elements which include “Brothers Grimm” even though it has been vaulted at Warners. At that time I represented the 50% owner of the title, Gunther Jung, also of Cinerama Inc. and John Sittig, Director of Cinerama Inc. and myself along with Warner’s Dick May, now retired, did several photo chemical tests at Crest labs in 2002 of the water damaged sections and the availability and condition of the o-neg elements. I had received a copy thru Dick of the 1995 o-negative inspection reports where multiple problems such as this damage was listed. A little less than half of the rolls had notations of moderate to severe water damage due to a flood in one of the vaults years earlier. We did print up one small 300 foot section of a water damaged panel and found that the damage was mostly on the left edge, but other rolls could be on different sides. We also found there were a few rolls of missing o-negatives, but we never got around to checking on the YCM separation masters to see if they were complete or not. We had found earlier that the Cinerama travelogues did not all have complete sep. masters so perhaps Grimm has them complete?

    Assuming the sep masters are complete then yes a restoration could be accomplished on “Grimm” however just imagine the expense of 9 B&W film frame elements (Y-C-M x3) to create 1 Cinerama 3-panel frame on the screen. Then if there is any shrinkage problems of the Y-C-M elements (as in misregistration) you would have one huge budget problem or the most expensive restoration/scanning job ever to end up with digital elements such as we have done with the travelogues.

    On our Cinerama travelogue restorations we were fortunate to have the Library of Congress 3-panel deposit Eastmancolor faded prints available to scan our missing sections and then rebuild back the color, however as I understand it from my pals at LOC there is no 3-panel 6-perf IB prints of “Grimm” on deposit which could possibly fill in any missing and damaged areas. They only have the 35mm scope general release version.

    Is “Brothers Grimm” digitally restorable? I would say the answer is possibly but a very hesitant yes. However it should be understood that it might not look as pristine as “HTWWW”. FYI -the o-negs on “HTWWW” were in excellent condition when we started printing up the answer print at Crest labs back in 2001. Warner Brother’s digital transfer work was started in 2006 from this same element for the blue ray release in the fall of 2008. This neg did not need very much clean up or digital restoration work. Blending the 3-panels back together again was a major part of that work.

    The reason I say possibly yes is that after our “Windjammer” Cinemiracle experience – dealing with such severe damage, shrinkage, fading, dirt, chemical blotches, warpage, missing panels vinegar syndrome and even entire rolls missing, nothing can ever scare me again. “Windjammer” turned out better than we could ever have imagined.

    In a nutshell -this is how I would approach “Grimm” without a 1.5+ mil budget: For starters carefully scan the Bradford UK IB tech 3-panel Cinerama 6 perf. print as well as some IB Tech 6 perf. elements we have recently located in Sweden. Then add in what is still usable of the o-negs favoring them where possible. In areas that simply cannot be saved then go from the YCM seps. Perhaps as a last resort, for troubled areas, use the 65mm IP, an optical created from the 3-panels at Metrocolor labs in the 1960s, this apparently has no cropping on the sides. If that element is used then attempt some better panel blending tricks on the optical printer join areas.

    Then a very slow and difficult 3-panel blending operation, clean up, dust busting and flicker removal. Finally the blending (color and density etc.) of the various composite 3-panel source materials to facilitate in minimizing the “checkerboard” look of these different elements. Thus make it as close as possible to appear like it’s all from one basic source. A challenge for sure!

    A number of years ago, I came upon a number of dye transfer rolls in an LA vault, possibly sitting around to be used as fill.

  18. I've given up on ever seeing Grimm in anything higher quality than the laserdisc. TCM has aired a transfer that, from what I understand, is marginally better than the LD, but any captures I've seen of it were compressed so badly that it wasn't worth watching. I finally bought a copy of the LD last year so that I could finally see it. It's certainly not a great film. There are some really nice moments and I'll watch George Pal animation or Russ Tamblyn dance any day, but I can see why saving it isn't a high priority for WB. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't purchase a BD of it day one, should a miracle occur and a digital restoration take place. My kids roll their eyes at me when I watch the Cinerama docs or HTWWW, but I don't care. Seeing Cinerama for myself back in the 90's, even with scratchy, sometimes badly-faded prints, was a shock to the system and made me a fan for life. People who think that modern, faux-Imax is the height of cinematic experience have no idea how wrong they are.

  19. The Japanese laser disc is the same as the TCM broadcast. The other laser disc is missing the picture for the prologue, missing picture info on the sides, overture and intermission music.

  20. DP 70

    Sorry i got my Cinerama films mixed the above post is about How the West Was Won.

    it must be the heat:)

    I knew you must have because there was no DVD release for The Wonderful World of the Brothers Grimm.

  21. As a kid WWOTBG and HTWWW were extremely dear to me and I relived them in the soundtrack LPs. I loved them both so much I would “marry” them. WWOTBG has such an international flavor with locations and an incredible cast of great character actors. I sure wanted a father like Laurence Harvey! I saw it a number of times when MGM ran the family classic movies in weekend theater matinee showings. I know the cost of restoring is considerable, but I think there is much worth while in bringing it back to more of what it was. The TCM print is at least the complete original road show version, as far as I can tell.

  22. Strohmaier

    The Grim truth about “Brothers Grimm”

    The ownership and copyright of both dramatic Cinerama titles “HTWWW” and “Brothers Grimm” is shared 50-50 between (formally MGM) now Warner Bros. and Cinerama Inc. As part of the major Cinerama revival efforts done starting in 2000 I have had first hand knowledge of the condition of all the Cinerama elements which include “Brothers Grimm” even though it has been vaulted at Warners. At that time I represented the 50% owner of the title, Gunther Jung, also of Cinerama Inc. and John Sittig, Director of Cinerama Inc. and myself along with Warner’s Dick May, now retired, did several photo chemical tests at Crest labs in 2002 of the water damaged sections and the availability and condition of the o-neg elements. I had received a copy thru Dick of the 1995 o-negative inspection reports where multiple problems such as this damage was listed. A little less than half of the rolls had notations of moderate to severe water damage due to a flood in one of the vaults years earlier. We did print up one small 300 foot section of a water damaged panel and found that the damage was mostly on the left edge, but other rolls could be on different sides. We also found there were a few rolls of missing o-negatives, but we never got around to checking on the YCM separation masters to see if they were complete or not. We had found earlier that the Cinerama travelogues did not all have complete sep. masters so perhaps Grimm has them complete?

    Assuming the sep masters are complete then yes a restoration could be accomplished on “Grimm” however just imagine the expense of 9 B&W film frame elements (Y-C-M x3) to create 1 Cinerama 3-panel frame on the screen. Then if there is any shrinkage problems of the Y-C-M elements (as in misregistration) you would have one huge budget problem or the most expensive restoration/scanning job ever to end up with digital elements such as we have done with the travelogues.

    On our Cinerama travelogue restorations we were fortunate to have the Library of Congress 3-panel deposit Eastmancolor faded prints available to scan our missing sections and then rebuild back the color, however as I understand it from my pals at LOC there is no 3-panel 6-perf IB prints of “Grimm” on deposit which could possibly fill in any missing and damaged areas. They only have the 35mm scope general release version.

    Is “Brothers Grimm” digitally restorable? I would say the answer is possibly but a very hesitant yes. However it should be understood that it might not look as pristine as “HTWWW”. FYI -the o-negs on “HTWWW” were in excellent condition when we started printing up the answer print at Crest labs back in 2001. Warner Brother’s digital transfer work was started in 2006 from this same element for the blue ray release in the fall of 2008. This neg did not need very much clean up or digital restoration work. Blending the 3-panels back together again was a major part of that work.

    The reason I say possibly yes is that after our “Windjammer” Cinemiracle experience – dealing with such severe damage, shrinkage, fading, dirt, chemical blotches, warpage, missing panels vinegar syndrome and even entire rolls missing, nothing can ever scare me again. “Windjammer” turned out better than we could ever have imagined.

    In a nutshell -this is how I would approach “Grimm” without a 1.5+ mil budget: For starters carefully scan the Bradford UK IB tech 3-panel Cinerama 6 perf. print as well as some IB Tech 6 perf. elements we have recently located in Sweden. Then add in what is still usable of the o-negs favoring them where possible. In areas that simply cannot be saved then go from the YCM seps. Perhaps as a last resort, for troubled areas, use the 65mm IP, an optical created from the 3-panels at Metrocolor labs in the 1960s, this apparently has no cropping on the sides. If that element is used then attempt some better panel blending tricks on the optical printer join areas.

    Then a very slow and difficult 3-panel blending operation, clean up, dust busting and flicker removal. Finally the blending (color and density etc.) of the various composite 3-panel source materials to facilitate in minimizing the “checkerboard” look of these different elements. Thus make it as close as possible to appear like it’s all from one basic source. A challenge for sure!

    David: If anyone can restore this film, you can! Your restorations of all the other Cinerama releases were, without question, absolutely astounding. Anything would be an improvement over the laserdisc release, which I have, sans the opening scenes with Oscar Homolka. So is a lack of funds the big issue here? What if we mounted a letter-writing campaign to WB. Just tell us what we can do! Thanks and good luck if you should decide to proceed with this project. We're ALL here for you!

  23. RolandL

    08/24/62
    [​IMG]

    08/24/62
    [​IMG]

    08/29/62
    [​IMG]

    10/01/62
    [​IMG]

    Boy, do these ads bring back memories! I was working for the Uptown at the time during my senior year in high school. Some of the best years of my life and I considered it a great privilege to have worked at the Uptown Cinerama!

  24. I saw this film as kid in 1962, probably twice. Cinerama was immersive. And I saw How the West as well. Loved them both back then. I most def would buy a restored Blu-ray. However I did buy the laserdisc back in the early 90s and the film did not play as well as I remembered. How the West on the other hand I still love despite its dated nature.

    But again I would shell out for a restored version.

  25. Matt Hough

    Not a separately filmed version, but a 35mm print from the large format elements for use in regular theaters after the roadshow Cinerama engagements ended.

    I saw the cinerama version several times and we also screened the 35mm version where I worked. Did't look good in cinemascope after seeing it in cinerama.

  26. cinemiracle

    Was released on video however.

    If you'll scroll back to post #3 in this thread, I acknowledged that it got up to laserdisc before Warners stopped issuing it. How the West Was Won got the VHS-laser-DVD-Blu-ray journey complete with improvements in each iteration.

  27. RolandL

    The Japanese laser disc is the same as the TCM broadcast. The other laser disc is missing the picture for the prologue, missing picture info on the sides, overture and intermission music.

    I wonder where one might obtain the Japanese LD version?

  28. Mark Tay

    I'm responsible for the smilebox trailer on youtube. I sourced it from the laserdisc, de-interlaced it, applied some color correction, and added the smilebox effect. I'm a fan of everything George Pal did and wanted to bring awareness to the lack of an HD release for this title.

    Keep up the good work, and let us know how we can help.

  29. Mark Tay

    I'm responsible for the smilebox trailer on youtube. I sourced it from the laserdisc, de-interlaced it, applied some color correction, and added the smilebox effect. I'm a fan of everything George Pal did and wanted to bring awareness to the lack of an HD release for this title.

    Well, it's a wonderful job and a noteworthy suggestion to the powers-that-be that they have something of value here.

  30. William Moore

    I have looked but didn't find it. Let me know if you find one. thanks!

    Sadly, it doesn't turn up very often. There's one on LDDB.com for sale, but they want over $100 for it. I'd love to have a copy, but not for that kind of money.

  31. OK, I found that Japanese LD of "Brothers Grimm" on the LD Database site, from a dealer known as "Flying Terrapin Laserdiscs." Only one used copy w/Japanese subtitles, supposedly not in the picture area. Asking price is $199.00 and bids are allowed and the lowest offer allowed is 1%, making the price $197.00 plus shipping (how generous!) It is advertised however to have the full prologue, overture, entr'acte, and I think a trailer. But that price is outrageous, if you ask me. Disc was made by Pioneer Japan so it's probably much better than the US release. Here's my question: How could one eliminate those subtitles? No menu, I'm guessing, where they could be turned off like on a DVD. If there is a way to get rid of those subtitles, I might consider it, maybe in my dreams.

  32. William Moore

    OK, I found that Japanese LD of "Brothers Grimm" on the LD Database site, from a dealer known as "Flying Terrapin Laserdiscs." Only one used copy w/Japanese subtitles, supposedly not in the picture area. Asking price is $199.00 and bids are allowed and the lowest offer allowed is 1%, making the price $197.00 plus shipping (how generous!) It is advertised however to have the full prologue, overture, entr'acte, and I think a trailer. But that price is outrageous, if you ask me. Disc was made by Pioneer Japan so it's probably much better than the US release. Here's my question: How could one eliminate those subtitles? No menu, I'm guessing, where they could be turned off like on a DVD. If there is a way to get rid of those subtitles, I might consider it, maybe in my dreams.

    Unfortunately, with Laserdisc being an analog video format, the subtitles are normally part of the image itself, rather than a separate file that is digitally superimposed. There isn't a way to get rid of them, save for digitizing the video and either cropping or masking.

  33. Brian Kidd

    Unfortunately, with Laserdisc being an analog video format, the subtitles are normally part of the image itself, rather than a separate file that is digitally superimposed. There isn't a way to get rid of them, save for digitizing the video and either cropping or masking.

    Well, the seller claims the subtitles are NOT "supered" over the picture which could be, since "Grimm" is letterboxed which would leave some picture area above and/or below for uses such as this, right?

  34. William Moore

    Well, the seller claims the subtitles are NOT "supered" over the picture which could be, since "Grimm" is letterboxed which would leave some picture area above and/or below for uses such as this, right?

    Because the aspect ratio is reeeeallly wide, there's a decent amount of space above and below the image where the subtitles can fit. The big problem with ultra-widescreen films on Laserdisc is that they are letterboxed into a 4:3 image, so detail is pretty lacking.

    There are some Laserdiscs from Japan that used an anamorphic squeeze, much like DVD, to allow for a bit more image detail, but there were few of them released. Heck, there were even HD Laserdiscs using the MUSE system that was used for early HDTV in Japan, but getting a working player and discs is quite an expensive proposition.

  35. Well, I have asked the seller lots of questions regarding his copy of “Brothers Grimm” on Pioneer’s Japanese LD, which is listed for sale on the Laserdisc Database website and he claims that the subtitles are NOT in the picture. Also, he says the video on the LD was sourced from a 70mm print (an interpositive?) and there are actually at least two 70mm logos on the gatefold packaging plus he says the audio is Dolby Surround. Too bad, since if came from a 70mm source, it would have had multi-channel sound which could have been encoded for Dolby AC-3. Anyway, I’m thinking of buying, or at least making an offer, for this LD set. I figure I could buy some black felt and mount it below the picture to cover the subtitles. Any comments?

  36. William Moore

    Well, I have asked the seller lots of questions regarding his copy of "Brothers Grimm" on Pioneer's Japanese LD, which is listed for sale on the Laserdisc Database website and he claims that the subtitles are NOT in the picture. Also, he says the video on the LD was sourced from a 70mm print (an interpositive?) and there are actually at least two 70mm logos on the gatefold packaging plus he says the audio is Dolby Surround. Too bad, since if came from a 70mm source, it would have had multi-channel sound which could have been encoded for Dolby AC-3. Anyway, I'm thinking of buying, or at least making an offer, for this LD set. I figure I could buy some black felt and mount it below the picture to cover the subtitles. Any comments?

    I use a scaler to hide Japanese subtitles when they are below the picture frame on a LaserDisc. The one I have is the DVDO iScan VP20, and the feature is referred to as "borders."

  37. Mark Tay

    I'm responsible for the smilebox trailer on youtube. I sourced it from the laserdisc, de-interlaced it, applied some color correction, and added the smilebox effect. I'm a fan of everything George Pal did and wanted to bring awareness to the lack of an HD release for this title.

    I thought that the smilebox effect was subject to copyright?

  38. cinemiracle

    I thought that the smilebox effect was subject to copyright?

    Yep.

    "SmileBox, the name, and the Smilebox logo is a registered trade mark of C.A. Productions and is sanctioned by Cinerama Inc. which has authorized its use in conjunction with displaying Cinerama branded Images. "

    (The American Widescreen Museum)

  39. Mark Tay

    I use a scaler to hide Japanese subtitles when they are below the picture frame on a LaserDisc. The one I have is the DVDO iScan VP20, and the feature is referred to as "borders."

    Those are no longer made, are they? Or, where might I obtain one? Thanks!

  40. RolandL

    On eBay for $4.99

    [​IMG]

    Yes, I saw that listed, but that was AFTER I paid $145.00 for the same thing from a seller on Laserdisc Database. Haven't received it yet, but note the 70mm logo on the lower front corner of this cover. Apparently this disc was mastered from a 70mm composite print or negative. Seller claims this version has better color, the missing prologue, overture and entr'acte, and more picture on the sides(not sure what this means). Also, he claims that several print imperfections are visible. Just hoping this will be better than my US version, but I feel like a real "schmuck" for having paid that high price

  41. William Moore

    Yes, I saw that listed, but that was AFTER I paid $145.00 for the same thing from a seller on Laserdisc Database. Haven't received it yet, but note the 70mm logo on the lower front corner of this cover. Apparently this disc was mastered from a 70mm composite print or negative. Seller claims this version has better color, the missing prologue, overture and entr'acte, and more picture on the sides(not sure what this means). Also, he claims that several print imperfections are visible. Just hoping this will be better than my US version, but I feel like a real "schmuck" for having paid that high price

    I wouldn't necessarily believe the seller. I know of no transfer from a 70mm composite print.

  42. haineshisway

    I wouldn't necessarily believe the seller. I know of no transfer from a 70mm composite print.

    Well, there is a 70mm logo right on the cover and there is another one elsewhere on the jacket. Also, I have read elsewhere that a 65mm composite of this title exists.

  43. William Moore

    Those are no longer made, are they? Or, where might I obtain one? Thanks!

    Found one on Ebay, but seller said it didn't function and was just selling it for parts. Would any other DVDO processor work? BTW, DVDO isn't any longer in business, right?

  44. William Moore

    Well, there is a 70mm logo right on the cover and there is another one elsewhere on the jacket. Also, I have read elsewhere that a 65mm composite of this title exists.

    Anyone can put anything on a cover or back cover – it's meaningless – but you'll let us know I'm sure.

  45. cinemiracle

    But is was released in the 70mm format where I saw it.

    Yes i saw it 3 times in 70mm at the Empire in London and it fantastic, the 6-track was one of the best i have ever heard.
    Also it was the last true 6 -track stereo mix before baby boom came in.

  46. I still have my two Pioneer players and bought many laserdiscs from Ebay years ago. I will look at how the bidding goes on it and right now it's at $15. It does say that the Japanese subtitles are "out of picture" which means at the bottom of the screen?

  47. atcolomb

    I still have my two Pioneer players and bought many laserdiscs from Ebay years ago. I will look at how the bidding goes on it and right now it's at $15. It does say that the Japanese subtitles are "out of picture" which means at the bottom of the screen?

    I am bidding on this too!

  48. DP 70

    Yes i saw it 3 times in 70mm at the Empire in London and it was fantastic, the 6-track was one of the best i have ever heard.
    Also it was the last true 6 -track stereo mix before baby boom came in.

    The Blu-ray has the highly directional dialog.

  49. Since I already will be getting a copy this next week, I think I’ll drop out of the bidding. I’m guessing by then the bids will have exceeded what I paid for mine, and maybe I’ll have the “bargain” copy after all. Good luck guys!

  50. atcolomb

    While i was on Ebay i did a search on the Beatles Let It Be on laserdisc and two sellers have it for over $200!

    With it being a DiscoVision title, it's probably rotted anyway. The latest scuttlebutt from "insiders" is that Let It Be is being prepped for 2020, but we've heard similar rumors before that haven't come to pass.

  51. RolandL

    Bid with only 5 seconds left to get the lowest price. If it doesn't look any better than the TCM broadcast, save your money and don't bid.

    It sounds like it used the same transfer as the TCM showing, which at least means it looks a lot better than the older, US laserdisc. Considering there isn't really a good capture of the TCM showing "accessible" online, it's probably the best one can hope for, given that it doesn't look like it will ever get a proper restoration.

  52. I am getting ready to experiment with the masking (black fleece) being put up over my screen to cover up the subtitles. I plan on pausing a scene from my Grimm Brothers LD and then measuring down from the bottom of the picture to an “unknown” point below the picture, since I don’t know how much screen space the subtitles will take up. Any suggestions?

  53. Roland: What can I do with these, or are you just showing me a good "frame" to measure by? Also, the Japanese version arrived today. Haven't played it yet, but maybe I should watch a bit just to see how distracting those subtitles will be?

  54. Well, that LD of “Brothers Grimm” just sold on Ebay for $138 and change, so almost what I paid for mine. As I anticipated, there was a “mad rush” of bidding during the last few moments. Hoping to play my copy tomorrow. No time tonight. BTW, there is a Turner logo on the jacket, so I’m sure it’s the same version that is shown periodically on TCM, but I have to wonder why this version wasn’t released in the US. Has anyone recorded the Turner broadcast on DVR?

  55. William Moore

    Roland: What can I do with these, or are you just showing me a good "frame" to measure by? Also, the Japanese version arrived today. Haven't played it yet, but maybe I should watch a bit just to see how distracting those subtitles will be?

    Just showing the extra picture info on the sides on the Japanese compared to the US and other differences. What is odd is that the extra picture info on the sides in only in the prologue and opening credits. After that, they look about the same. If they are both from 35mm, why would they have two different versions?

  56. Just had a look at side one of the Japanese “Brothers Grimm” and I must say I was somewhat disappointed with the video quality. I think the color is a little better on this version but that’s about it so far. I was hoping for a little more clarity in the image when compared to the US version. Right after the opening MGM promo there was a Turner logo, so guess this version is from Turner. The blend lines look OK, but I noticed that the Opening Overture sounded a little muffled, especially when compared to the remastered Soundtrack CD, which is superb. I really didn’t find the subtitles too distracting, but still plan on covering them up. Guess I will be still “pining away” for a restoration; however, I had a thought and that is why couldn’t a “Go Fund Me” page be started to raise money to help pay for the restoration? Don’t know what is involved but might be worth a try.

  57. RolandL

    Just showing the extra picture info on the sides on the Japanese compared to the US and other differences. What is odd is that the extra picture info on the sides in only in the prologue and opening credits. After that, they look about the same. If they are both from 35mm, why would they have two different versions?

    Quite possibly the Japanese LD, which was made by Pioneer apparently, was indeed taken from that 65mm interpositive, but of course that doesn't explain why the extra side info was only contained in the prologue.

  58. William Moore

    Quite possibly the Japanese LD, which was made by Pioneer apparently, was indeed taken from that 65mm interpositive, but of course that doesn't explain why the extra side info was only contained in the prologue.

    And opening credits. The US laser disc pans side-to-side some of it, while the Japanese does not have to with the wider aspect ratio.

  59. Again I say I do not believe there was a 65mm interpolative on this film, and even if there was, at the time the LD was made it would have been taken from 35mm anyway. I think there's a lot of suppositions and Fantasyland goin' on here. 🙂

  60. RolandL

    And opening credits. The US laser disc pans side-to-side some of it, while the Japanese does not have to with the wider aspect ratio.

    Hi Roland,
    Did you know Grand Prix is screening in Digital at the Cinerama Dome and in Bradford on the Cinerama screen in October.:)

  61. RolandL

    And opening credits. The US laser disc pans side-to-side some of it, while the Japanese does not have to with the wider aspect ratio.

    I'm going to finish screening "Brothers Grimm" and will report back. Hoping it will get better. At least I have figured out a way to cover the subtitles with a "hard matte." BTW, Roland, I really like your Cinerama website. Too bad you couldn't find a picture of the Uptown's auditorium with the Cinerama screen installed. It was huge! Uptown seated 822 at that time after it was remodeled and the theatre, I believe, was built in the 1920s. I hope no one comes along wanting to tear it down!

  62. Okay, here's Dave on it and if anyone knows this stuff he does – but read carefully. Was there EVER a large format title scanned for a laser disc release – that would be the question. Because back then it would have been REALLY unusual. Anyway:

    65mm does exist – I am not sure if it's 100% complete as the rolls are numbered in a funny manner.
    Some rolls were created in 1963 and others re done in 1971 kinda strange.

    I would hope its complete and resonable quality, It was most likely made to create the 35mm theatrical version as three panels went to 65mm on optical printer at MGM Labs then from that the 35mm (cropped) was made. Apparently West was done the same way, at least as far as I can tell.

  63. haineshisway

    Okay, here's Dave on it and if anyone knows this stuff he does – but read carefully. Was there EVER a large format title scanned for a laser disc release – that would be the question. Because back then it would have been REALLY unusual. Anyway:

    65mm does exist – I am not sure if it's 100% complete as the rolls are numbered in a funny manner.
    Some rolls were created in 1963 and others re done in 1971 kinda strange.

    I would hope its complete and resonable quality, It was most likely made to create the 35mm theatrical version as three panels went to 65mm on optical printer at MGM Labs then from that the 35mm (cropped) was made. Apparently West was done the same way, at least as far as I can tell.

    OK, then. Now that that question has been resolved, did David happen to mention, or even hint, that he was going to begin restoring "Brothers Grimm.? As I have said before, he's our only hope. And what about my idea of starting a "Go Fund Me" page to raise money? I'd be willing to bet that most Forum members would be willing to chip in and maybe even Barbara Eden and Russ Tamblyn, too!

  64. William Moore

    OK, then. Now that that question has been resolved, did David happen to mention, or even hint, that he was going to begin restoring "Brothers Grimm.? As I have said before, he's our only hope. And what about my idea of starting a "Go Fund Me" page to raise money? I'd be willing to bet that most Forum members would be willing to chip in and maybe even Barbara Eden and Russ Tamblyn, too!

    Not gonna happen. It’s a Warner title and they are not interested.

  65. William Moore

    OK, then. Now that that question has been resolved, did David happen to mention, or even hint, that he was going to begin restoring "Brothers Grimm.? As I have said before, he's our only hope. And what about my idea of starting a "Go Fund Me" page to raise money? I'd be willing to bet that most Forum members would be willing to chip in and maybe even Barbara Eden and Russ Tamblyn, too!

    Nothing has been "resolved" really. Read what he wrote. And no one has answered my question about a laserdisc that used a large format scan as its transfer.

  66. Well, it was "resolved" that there was indeed a 65mm interpositive created from which to make the 35mm prints and that apparently it is still on hand somewhere. So, yes, I did read what David wrote, and I guess you'll have to do your own research on the last part of your comments. And, I think I'll write to Warners and see if they ARE interested!

  67. DP 70

    Hi Roland,
    Did you know Grand Prix is screening in Digital at the Cinerama Dome and in Bradford on the Cinerama screen in October.:)

    Yes, also at the Dome, Battle of the Bulge 9/30, How The West Was Won 10/21, It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World 11/7 with special guests.

  68. haineshisway

    Nothing has been "resolved" really. Read what he wrote. And no one has answered my question about a laserdisc that used a large format scan as its transfer.

    This article lists titles that were transferred from 70mm.

    Ultrascan 70 saw first commercial transfer elements in March 1991. The first feature transfer was "2001:A Space Odyssey" and was mastered direct from a 65mm printing negative number 1, dated 1968, for Turner/MGM/UA. The next restoration projects tackled included non-linear anamorphic, unsqueezed from Ultra Panavision print elements of "It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World" and "The Hallelujah Trail". This same process was used in the restoration of "The Alamo". Universal Studios utilized their 65mm inter positive, made optically from the 35mm Technirama negative, for the supervisor transfer of "Spartacus". Transfer of MGM/UA's "West Side Story" was made from a 65mm laboratory inter positive and was supervised by the director Robert Wise.

  69. RolandL

    This article lists titles that were transferred from 70mm.

    Ultrascan 70 saw first commercial transfer elements in March 1991. The first feature transfer was "2001:A Space Odyssey" and was mastered direct from a 65mm printing negative number 1, dated 1968, for Turner/MGM/UA. The next restoration projects tackled included non-linear anamorphic, unsqueezed from Ultra Panavision print elements of "It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World" and "The Hallelujah Trail". This same process was used in the restoration of "The Alamo". Universal Studios utilized their 65mm inter positive, made optically from the 35mm Technirama negative, for the supervisor transfer of "Spartacus". Transfer of MGM/UA's "West Side Story" was made from a 65mm laboratory inter positive and was supervised by the director Robert Wise.

    "…alright, alright, alright…"

  70. RolandL

    It's half owned by Warner and half Cinerama. But Warner would have to give the OK.

    Roland: Don't you think that Warners would give the go-ahead if David Strohmeier decided to take on the project? And, what about John Sittig? Would he be in favor of the "Grimm Brothers" restoration?

  71. William Moore

    Roland: Don't you think that Warners would give the go-ahead if David Strohmeier decided to take on the project? And, what about John Sittig? Would he be in favor of the "Grimm Brothers" restoration?

    Here's the thing: this is a title that fits best into the Warner Archive Collection business model, but the costs of restoration far exceed the standard Warner Archive budget. Case in point: the recent Blu-ray release of Seven Brides for Seven Brothers only happened because Warner was able to track down a pre-70mm blowup interpositive of the film, as the OCN had been damaged by wear and tear of creating 70mm prints. To work from the OCN and attempt a digital restoration would've been far too expensive for WAC. Similarly, dealing with a water-damaged OCN for Brothers Grimm is far too expensive for WAC's model, and Warner Media [the new parent company created by the merger of Time Warner and AT&T] will not allow materials to leave the studio for someone like David Strohmaier to do a digital transfer and low-budget restoration. More importantly, Warner would NEVER allow a release harvested from a 65mm IP, as it doesn't meet their quality standards.

    So there you have it.

  72. William Moore

    Roland: Don't you think that Warners would give the go-ahead if David Strohmeier decided to take on the project? And, what about John Sittig? Would he be in favor of the "Grimm Brothers" restoration?

    Sorry no I don't think they would. Warner probably lost money on the How The West Was Won Blu-ray. Grimm would cost even more to restore with less sales.

  73. RolandL

    This article lists titles that were transferred from 70mm.

    Ultrascan 70 saw first commercial transfer elements in March 1991. The first feature transfer was "2001:A Space Odyssey" and was mastered direct from a 65mm printing negative number 1, dated 1968, for Turner/MGM/UA. The next restoration projects tackled included non-linear anamorphic, unsqueezed from Ultra Panavision print elements of "It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World" and "The Hallelujah Trail". This same process was used in the restoration of "The Alamo". Universal Studios utilized their 65mm inter positive, made optically from the 35mm Technirama negative, for the supervisor transfer of "Spartacus". Transfer of MGM/UA's "West Side Story" was made from a 65mm laboratory inter positive and was supervised by the director Robert Wise.

    Then can you please explain the substandard Hallelujah Trail transfers on Blu-ray?

  74. williammoore

    Lots of speculation here about what may be, but I'm not ready to give up just yet!

    Nothing said concerning the damage, cost or Warner’s non interest in WWOBG is speculation. This topic has been discussed for years, or at least since HTWWW was released on Blu and by many experts in the know.

    I do hope you can change the minds of those in control, but I’m very doubtful.

  75. In the end it's very simple math: After the ten people in this thread purchase it, that will be it. They'd be lucky to sell 1,000 of them and it's not worth their time and/or resources to embark on the kind of work this film would need. This isn't a film like Harper – this is a huge undertaking and they could never justify the expense of of it, unless they're suddenly feeling benevolent.

  76. Unfortunately, there will be zero movement on this title unless and until Warner amends its policy to allow for relaxing their standards for special exception titles. They only are willing to do work in-house, but do not have a cost-efficient method for restoring this title at their own facilities. At present time, they have shown zero interest in doing so, and as the owner of this title, they are obviously free to do with it as they wish. They are unwilling to allow anyone else to work on it. So, permanent stalemate.

  77. RolandL

    This article lists titles that were transferred from 70mm.

    Ultrascan 70 saw first commercial transfer elements in March 1991. The first feature transfer was "2001:A Space Odyssey" and was mastered direct from a 65mm printing negative number 1, dated 1968, for Turner/MGM/UA. The next restoration projects tackled included non-linear anamorphic, unsqueezed from Ultra Panavision print elements of "It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World" and "The Hallelujah Trail". This same process was used in the restoration of "The Alamo". Universal Studios utilized their 65mm inter positive, made optically from the 35mm Technirama negative, for the supervisor transfer of "Spartacus". Transfer of MGM/UA's "West Side Story" was made from a 65mm laboratory inter positive and was supervised by the director Robert Wise.

    haineshisway

    Then can you please explain the substandard Hallelujah Trail transfers on Blu-ray?

    Easy. Transfers in 1991 would've been at SD resolutions, so any transfer done for BD would've been done later. Whoever handled the harvests for the BD release didn't know what they were doing, or didn't have access to 65mm archival elements, and therefore worked from a 35mm reduction element to questionable results [see the BD of 2001 for comparison].

  78. So then how did they have the 65mm elements for Trail in 1991 but not have them for the Blu-ray. You do understand, none of this makes a whit of sense. I understand the resolution of laserdisc and DVD, which begs the question, why bother to transfer at all from large format in those days unless the large format was a different cut – certainly in the case of 2001 and West Side Story there was only one cut so why bother if it all boils down to SD and crappy-looking?

  79. Josh Steinberg

    Unfortunately, there will be zero movement on this title unless and until Warner amends its policy to allow for relaxing their standards for special exception titles. They only are willing to do work in-house, but do not have a cost-efficient method for restoring this title at their own facilities. At present time, they have shown zero interest in doing so, and as the owner of this title, they are obviously free to do with it as they wish. They are unwilling to allow anyone else to work on it. So, permanent stalemate.

    Correction: WB only owns 50% of this title, with Cinerama Inc.owning the other half and since ALL of the other Cinerama titles have been remastered very successfully and released on BD, I don't know why this would be the only Cinerama production "left out in the cold with no hope of ever being rescued." Furthermore, it seems to me that none of the Cinerama BD titles ever "flew off the shelves" after being released and were perhaps only purchased by dedicated fans, but that didn't stop the efforts to restore them…sales or no sales. It was due to someone seeing the value in restoring these productions for future generations to enjoy. "Wonderful World of the Brothers Grimm" is certainly deserving of such an encore!

  80. Oh dear. There is an expression in the show business: "Walk away" which is what I'm about to do. We're not talking about the travelogues here, William, we're talking about films that are now owned by Warners, who will not outsource them – two films – How the West Was Won, which they did because that's always been a good seller for them, and Brothers Grimm, which they haven't because it requires much more work than West.

    I don't live in Fantasyland but am happy for those who do 🙂 Warners CONTROLS the two titles. End of story. Write them endlessly. I'm sure I know how that will go.

  81. William Moore

    Correction: WB only owns 50% of this title, with Cinerama Inc.owning the other half and since ALL of the other Cinerama titles have been remastered very successfully and released on BD, I don't know why this would be the only Cinerama production "left out in the cold with no hope of ever being rescued." Furthermore, it seems to me that none of the Cinerama BD titles ever "flew off the shelves" after being released and were perhaps only purchased by dedicated fans, but that didn't stop the efforts to restore them…sales or no sales. It was due to someone seeing the value in restoring these productions for future generations to enjoy. "Wonderful World of the Brothers Grimm" is certainly deserving of such an encore!

    I did know that WB owns half the title, but since they control the physical assets and would need to sign off on any release, I was concerned mentioning that would just create more confusion.

    Let me be clear: I am 100% in favor of a release of this title. I have spoken many times about my feelings on Warner's policies and release requirements. But it doesn't matter what I think. This title cannot be released on physical media without Warner's approval, and they will not approve anything short of perfection, nor will they allow anyone else (including the Cinerama folks who own 50% of the copyright) to work on it or release it. Therefore, the result is the same – it's not coming out on disc in the foreseeable future.

  82. I'd buy any level of quality release of this film on disc. I only own it on VHS and would have to unpack my VCR from storage to watch it. I have every other George Pal production on DVD (plus The Time Machine on Blu-ray). But I guess it'll never be. Good to know it's going to air soon on TCM. I'll record it and see if I can just keep it on my DVR forever, at least as long as I have my current provider. Is it definitely airing in it's correct aspect ratio? I've done my best trying to follow this thread, but there's so much info and hard to remember everything.

  83. William Moore

    Correction: WB only owns 50% of this title, with Cinerama Inc.owning the other half and since ALL of the other Cinerama titles have been remastered very successfully and released on BD, I don't know why this would be the only Cinerama production "left out in the cold with no hope of ever being rescued." Furthermore, it seems to me that none of the Cinerama BD titles ever "flew off the shelves" after being released and were perhaps only purchased by dedicated fans, but that didn't stop the efforts to restore them…sales or no sales. It was due to someone seeing the value in restoring these productions for future generations to enjoy. "Wonderful World of the Brothers Grimm" is certainly deserving of such an encore!

    All we have to do is wait for a change in Warner's management and hopefully they will have an interest in restoring TWWOTBG

  84. William Moore

    I really wish that David Strohmaier would "weigh in" on this. Perhaps he knows things that we don't. David….?

    He did on post #20 and said the following:

    The Grim truth about “Brothers Grimm”

    The ownership and copyright of both dramatic Cinerama titles “HTWWW” and “Brothers Grimm” is shared 50-50 between (formally MGM) now Warner Bros. and Cinerama Inc. As part of the major Cinerama revival efforts done starting in 2000 I have had first hand knowledge of the condition of all the Cinerama elements which include “Brothers Grimm” even though it has been vaulted at Warners. At that time I represented the 50% owner of the title, Gunther Jung, also of Cinerama Inc. and John Sittig, Director of Cinerama Inc. and myself along with Warner’s Dick May, now retired, did several photo chemical tests at Crest labs in 2002 of the water damaged sections and the availability and condition of the o-neg elements. I had received a copy thru Dick of the 1995 o-negative inspection reports where multiple problems such as this damage was listed. A little less than half of the rolls had notations of moderate to severe water damage due to a flood in one of the vaults years earlier. We did print up one small 300 foot section of a water damaged panel and found that the damage was mostly on the left edge, but other rolls could be on different sides. We also found there were a few rolls of missing o-negatives, but we never got around to checking on the YCM separation masters to see if they were complete or not. We had found earlier that the Cinerama travelogues did not all have complete sep. masters so perhaps Grimm has them complete?

    Assuming the sep masters are complete then yes a restoration could be accomplished on “Grimm” however just imagine the expense of 9 B&W film frame elements (Y-C-M x3) to create 1 Cinerama 3-panel frame on the screen. Then if there is any shrinkage problems of the Y-C-M elements (as in misregistration) you would have one huge budget problem or the most expensive restoration/scanning job ever to end up with digital elements such as we have done with the travelogues.

    On our Cinerama travelogue restorations we were fortunate to have the Library of Congress 3-panel deposit Eastmancolor faded prints available to scan our missing sections and then rebuild back the color, however as I understand it from my pals at LOC there is no 3-panel 6-perf IB prints of “Grimm” on deposit which could possibly fill in any missing and damaged areas. They only have the 35mm scope general release version.

    Is “Brothers Grimm” digitally restorable? I would say the answer is possibly but a very hesitant yes. However it should be understood that it might not look as pristine as “HTWWW”. FYI -the o-negs on “HTWWW” were in excellent condition when we started printing up the answer print at Crest labs back in 2001. Warner Brother’s digital transfer work was started in 2006 from this same element for the blue ray release in the fall of 2008. This neg did not need very much clean up or digital restoration work. Blending the 3-panels back together again was a major part of that work.

    The reason I say possibly yes is that after our “Windjammer” Cinemiracle experience – dealing with such severe damage, shrinkage, fading, dirt, chemical blotches, warpage, missing panels vinegar syndrome and even entire rolls missing, nothing can ever scare me again. “Windjammer” turned out better than we could ever have imagined.

    In a nutshell -this is how I would approach “Grimm” without a 1.5+ mil budget: For starters carefully scan the Bradford UK IB tech 3-panel Cinerama 6 perf. print as well as some IB Tech 6 perf. elements we have recently located in Sweden. Then add in what is still usable of the o-negs favoring them where possible. In areas that simply cannot be saved then go from the YCM seps. Perhaps as a last resort, for troubled areas, use the 65mm IP, an optical created from the 3-panels at Metrocolor labs in the 1960s, this apparently has no cropping on the sides. If that element is used then attempt some better panel blending tricks on the optical printer join areas.

    Then a very slow and difficult 3-panel blending operation, clean up, dust busting and flicker removal. Finally the blending (color and density etc.) of the various composite 3-panel source materials to facilitate in minimizing the “checkerboard” look of these different elements. Thus make it as close as possible to appear like it’s all from one basic source. A challenge for sure!

  85. Tommy R

    ..Good to know it's going to air soon on TCM. I'll record it and see if I can just keep it on my DVR forever, at least as long as I have my current provider. Is it definitely airing in it's correct aspect ratio?

    The prologue and opening credits are probably the full 3-panel Cinerama AR. The rest is cropped to about 2.35.

  86. RolandL

    He did on post #20 and said the following:

    The Grim truth about “Brothers Grimm”

    The ownership and copyright of both dramatic Cinerama titles “HTWWW” and “Brothers Grimm” is shared 50-50 between (formally MGM) now Warner Bros. and Cinerama Inc. As part of the major Cinerama revival efforts done starting in 2000 I have had first hand knowledge of the condition of all the Cinerama elements which include “Brothers Grimm” even though it has been vaulted at Warners. At that time I represented the 50% owner of the title, Gunther Jung, also of Cinerama Inc. and John Sittig, Director of Cinerama Inc. and myself along with Warner’s Dick May, now retired, did several photo chemical tests at Crest labs in 2002 of the water damaged sections and the availability and condition of the o-neg elements. I had received a copy thru Dick of the 1995 o-negative inspection reports where multiple problems such as this damage was listed. A little less than half of the rolls had notations of moderate to severe water damage due to a flood in one of the vaults years earlier. We did print up one small 300 foot section of a water damaged panel and found that the damage was mostly on the left edge, but other rolls could be on different sides. We also found there were a few rolls of missing o-negatives, but we never got around to checking on the YCM separation masters to see if they were complete or not. We had found earlier that the Cinerama travelogues did not all have complete sep. masters so perhaps Grimm has them complete?

    Assuming the sep masters are complete then yes a restoration could be accomplished on “Grimm” however just imagine the expense of 9 B&W film frame elements (Y-C-M x3) to create 1 Cinerama 3-panel frame on the screen. Then if there is any shrinkage problems of the Y-C-M elements (as in misregistration) you would have one huge budget problem or the most expensive restoration/scanning job ever to end up with digital elements such as we have done with the travelogues.

    On our Cinerama travelogue restorations we were fortunate to have the Library of Congress 3-panel deposit Eastmancolor faded prints available to scan our missing sections and then rebuild back the color, however as I understand it from my pals at LOC there is no 3-panel 6-perf IB prints of “Grimm” on deposit which could possibly fill in any missing and damaged areas. They only have the 35mm scope general release version.

    Is “Brothers Grimm” digitally restorable? I would say the answer is possibly but a very hesitant yes. However it should be understood that it might not look as pristine as “HTWWW”. FYI -the o-negs on “HTWWW” were in excellent condition when we started printing up the answer print at Crest labs back in 2001. Warner Brother’s digital transfer work was started in 2006 from this same element for the blue ray release in the fall of 2008. This neg did not need very much clean up or digital restoration work. Blending the 3-panels back together again was a major part of that work.

    The reason I say possibly yes is that after our “Windjammer” Cinemiracle experience – dealing with such severe damage, shrinkage, fading, dirt, chemical blotches, warpage, missing panels vinegar syndrome and even entire rolls missing, nothing can ever scare me again. “Windjammer” turned out better than we could ever have imagined.

    In a nutshell -this is how I would approach “Grimm” without a 1.5+ mil budget: For starters carefully scan the Bradford UK IB tech 3-panel Cinerama 6 perf. print as well as some IB Tech 6 perf. elements we have recently located in Sweden. Then add in what is still usable of the o-negs favoring them where possible. In areas that simply cannot be saved then go from the YCM seps. Perhaps as a last resort, for troubled areas, use the 65mm IP, an optical created from the 3-panels at Metrocolor labs in the 1960s, this apparently has no cropping on the sides. If that element is used then attempt some better panel blending tricks on the optical printer join areas.

    Then a very slow and difficult 3-panel blending operation, clean up, dust busting and flicker removal. Finally the blending (color and density etc.) of the various composite 3-panel source materials to facilitate in minimizing the “checkerboard” look of these different elements. Thus make it as close as possible to appear like it’s all from one basic source. A challenge for sure!

    Roland: I have read and re-read this post and most of the others in this thread several times. I just thought that David might have some suggestions on how he might deal with the studio were he so inclined to embark on a restoration project as well as how to obtain financing. I would think that Warners would jump at the chance to allow him to work on this.

  87. Tommy R

    I'd buy any level of quality release of this film on disc. I only own it on VHS and would have to unpack my VCR from storage to watch it. I have every other George Pal production on DVD (plus The Time Machine on Blu-ray). But I guess it'll never be. Good to know it's going to air soon on TCM. I'll record it and see if I can just keep it on my DVR forever, at least as long as I have my current provider. Is it definitely airing in it's correct aspect ratio? I've done my best trying to follow this thread, but there's so much info and hard to remember everything.

    Tommy: I have the US release version of "Brothers Grimm" on LD which I would be willing to sell for a reasonable price.

  88. William Moore

    I would think that Warners would jump at the chance to allow him to work on this.

    Really? What has Warners done to persuade you of this? Mr. Strohmaier, incidentally, has told us that he is now retired and is enjoying being retired.

  89. Robin9

    Really? What has Warners done to persuade you of this? Mr. Strohmaier, incidentally, has told us that he is now retired and is enjoying being retired.

    You're not gonna win here. 🙂 If someone doesn't want to hear what is said repeatedly then it's a losing game to keep responding. The idea of someone at Warners "jumping at the chance" about anything done out of their purview is hilarious and other things.

  90. William Moore

    Roland: I have read and re-read this post and most of the others in this thread several times. I just thought that David might have some suggestions on how he might deal with the studio were he so inclined to embark on a restoration project as well as how to obtain financing. I would think that Warners would jump at the chance to allow him to work on this.

    No they wouldn't. They have this title and many others (Raintree County, numerous 3D titles, etc.), that they know someone else could do a video restoration for penny's on the dollar but they are not interested. We have been talking about these titles for many years and nothing ever gets done by the studios.

  91. Robin9

    Really? What has Warners done to persuade you of this? Mr. Strohmaier, incidentally, has told us that he is now retired and is enjoying being retired.

    Well, in post #20, his comments didn't lead me to believe that he has retired!

  92. haineshisway

    You're not gonna win here. 🙂 If someone doesn't want to hear what is said repeatedly then it's a losing game to keep responding. The idea of someone at Warners "jumping at the chance" about anything done out of their purview is hilarious and other things.

    Doesn't sound very funny to me!

  93. Whether Mr. Strohmaier is retired or not is completely irrelevant to the discussion. Warner is unwilling to restore it themselves at the high price point their internal restorations cost, and are unwilling to allow anyone else to work on it either. They are unwilling to release any physical product or license out any title which has less than perfect quality, which means that they would not allow Mr. Strohmaier to do the kind of restoration work he has done on the other Cinerama travelogue titles, because that goes against their own policy.

    Any which way you slice it, this title is stuck in limbo and will remain there for the foreseeable future.

    All of this has been discussed multiple times, in this thread and in many other threads.

    I'll step aside from this discussion as there's nothing further I can add.

  94. haineshisway

    You're not gonna win here. 🙂 If someone doesn't want to hear what is said repeatedly then it's a losing game to keep responding. The idea of someone at Warners "jumping at the chance" about anything done out of their purview is hilarious and other things.

    Persistence of refuted beliefs strikes again.

  95. The one thing history has proven about the studios is that they can change their management teams and attitudes in a split second.

    Skouras is out, Zanuck is back in. He hires his son Richard, who turns out to be a Wunderkind. Even Cleopatra finally makes a few bucks.

    1. New execs can come along and decide that they are not monetizing many assets and that there is money to be made by licensing just like the other studios are doing. Grimm makes the cut.
    2. David Strohmaier is contacted and decides that he really would like to finish all of the Cinerama movies, especially with a prospect of more money than he previously received for his efforts.
    3. A few years later, we have Grimm on 4K, and perhaps HTWWW as well.

    The only problem is that, the longer we wait, the less likely this is to happen. But it is possible. Even Universal cleaned up its act!

  96. OK, a few final thoughts for this thread. “Wonderful World of the Brothers Grimm” was one of the highest grossing movies of 1962 and grossed 8.92 million dollars. And with ticket prices averaging between one and two dollars at the Wichita Uptown Cinerama for reserved seats, at least, that tells me this film was hugely popular. It won one Academy Award and was nominated for 3 more! During the 60th Anniversary Celebration for Cinerama in 2012, which actually screened a print of “Brothers Grimm,” Cinerama president John Sittig stated that “Brothers Grimm” was the most requested title at the Festival! Also, according to a spokesman from Image Trends, the company which did a lot of the restoration work on the other Cinerama productions, has said that they could “cost effectively produce a digital version of Brothers Grimm, either from the original partially damaged negatives or from the 65mm IP, just like they have done many times before.” I feel that it’s high time that Warners take another look at restoring this wonderful George Pal production for the ages, and just maybe they will discover that straw can still truly be turned into gold!

  97. William Moore

    Well, in post #20, his comments didn't lead me to believe that he has retired!

    Mr. Strohmaier has posted in more than one thread. As he's not a prolific poster, you'll easily locate where he made that comment by browsing his previous posts. It was fairly recent,

  98. William Moore

    OK, a few final thoughts for this thread. "Wonderful World of the Brothers Grimm" was one of the highest grossing movies of 1962 and grossed 8.92 million dollars. And with ticket prices averaging between one and two dollars at the Wichita Uptown Cinerama for reserved seats, at least, that tells me this film was hugely popular. It won one Academy Award and was nominated for 3 more! During the 60th Anniversary Celebration for Cinerama in 2012, which actually screened a print of "Brothers Grimm," Cinerama president John Sittig stated that "Brothers Grimm" was the most requested title at the Festival! Also, according to a spokesman from Image Trends, the company which did a lot of the restoration work on the other Cinerama productions, has said that they could "cost effectively produce a digital version of Brothers Grimm, either from the original partially damaged negatives or from the 65mm IP, just like they have done many times before." I feel that it's high time that Warners take another look at restoring this wonderful George Pal production for the ages, and just maybe they will discover that straw can still truly be turned into gold!

    I understand that the film was a flop at the boxoffice , never even made as much as a dollar in profit and was a financial disaster.It was the only Cinerama film to lose money. Correct me if I am wrong.

  99. The fact of the matter is that, if a studio doesn't almost know 100% that they can make their money back on a title, they aren't going to spend the money to restore it. Physical media sales are a fraction of what they were at their height and the only people who care about older films are older folks themselves (and even those people are a small percentage of the overall consumer population). Warner isn't averse to releasing their older, more esoteric material through the Warner Archive, but they're films that don't require much work to create an acceptable HD scan. This film is neither popular, nor in decent shape. They don't want to have someone else touch their material, so it sits and rots.

    Could this situation change? Sure. Change is always possible. With the age and condition of the existing materials, though, I wouldn't count on it anytime soon, if ever.

  100. William Moore

    OK, a few final thoughts for this thread. "Wonderful World of the Brothers Grimm" was one of the highest grossing movies of 1962 and grossed 8.92 million dollars. And with ticket prices averaging between one and two dollars at the Wichita Uptown Cinerama for reserved seats, at least, that tells me this film was hugely popular. It won one Academy Award and was nominated for 3 more! During the 60th Anniversary Celebration for Cinerama in 2012, which actually screened a print of "Brothers Grimm," Cinerama president John Sittig stated that "Brothers Grimm" was the most requested title at the Festival! Also, according to a spokesman from Image Trends, the company which did a lot of the restoration work on the other Cinerama productions, has said that they could "cost effectively produce a digital version of Brothers Grimm, either from the original partially damaged negatives or from the 65mm IP, just like they have done many times before." I feel that it's high time that Warners take another look at restoring this wonderful George Pal production for the ages, and just maybe they will discover that straw can still truly be turned into gold!

    It is always good to be enthusiastic about a title but that should not lead to the false belief that one could actually make money by releasing it.

  101. cinemiracle

    I understand that the film was a flop at the boxoffice , never even made as much as a dollar in profit and was a financial disaster.It was the only Cinerama film to lose money. Correct me if I am wrong.

    INCORRECT! Please read post #141. This film was anything but a flop! It sold out every performance at the Uptown Cinerama for weeks, as I know it did at the other Cinerama venues as well. Also, it seems to me that many posting in this thread with their negative opinions as to what absolutely will be, no matter what, could expend their energy elsewhere on other issues more to their liking. I was trying to make my final post in this thread a positive one (#141), but apparently that was not to be, since I felt compelled to correct an entry in post #143. There is too much negativity here to carry on. So farewell, non-believers and naysayers. Maybe you can get a job at Warner Brothers, writing letters of rejection to film buffs!

  102. But let's just have reality, shall we? Cheerleading is fun, sure, but keep it real. Brothers Grimm was the 15th highest grossing film of 1962, if you believe Wikipedia. It grossed approximately 8.9 million dollars on a budget of 6.25 – that makes it a flop, I'm afraid, and a rather large one. As a comparison, How the West Was Won WAS a huge hit, grossing $46 million dollars, the second highest grossing film of its year. Look, you accuse people of being negative – that's not true at all. Most in this thread like the film, including me. But the reality is as you've been told heaven-knows-how-many-times, the budget would likely be over one million dollars to restore it and it would not sell over 3,000 copies. You do the math – that is the reality.

  103. I love the film and have the US laserdisc and the recent Spain “bootleg” DVD. But Bruce is correct, it was a flop compared to the the other US Cinerama films and it’s not ecomical to restore and release.

  104. Just out of curiosity, and I've been doing my best to follow this thread so forgive me if it's been addressed. Is the reason it would cost as much to remaster strictly because of the damage to the negative? Or were there more issues to remastering because it was filmed in this Cinerama process?

  105. haineshisway

    Yes, as Dave has said too many times, they'd have to go back to the separation masters – that's three masters times three panels. It's prohibitive.

    Not really sure what that means, but I guess it doesn't matter, there's so much stuff about movies and the technical aspects behind it and I'll probably never understand the nitty gritty details.

  106. williammoore

    INCORRECT! Please read post #141. This film was anything but a flop! It sold out every performance at the Uptown Cinerama for weeks, as I know it did at the other Cinerama venues as well. Also, it seems to me that many posting in this thread with their negative opinions as to what absolutely will be, no matter what, could expend their energy elsewhere on other issues more to their liking. I was trying to make my final post in this thread a positive one (#141), but apparently that was not to be, since I felt compelled to correct an entry in post #143. There is too much negativity here to carry on. So farewell, non-believers and naysayers. Maybe you can get a job at Warner Brothers, writing letters of rejection to film buffs!

    I remember reading in a film trade magazine after the film was released, that MGM were disappointed at the box office takings . The article also stated that they lost money on the film after taking into account the film's cost and all other aspects including advertising ,prints etc. I am not being negative as I loved the film and saw it many times in Cinerama and also in 35mm . I was just quoting what MGM said in the trade paper that I read. Maybe that was why MGM cancelled plans to make other films in Cinerama and never released the film in 70mm in non Cinerama cities. We were equipped with 70mm where I worked, but we only screened it in 35mm . Your 'very' negative comments tell me a lot about your personality and your suitability to make comments on HTF.

  107. Tommy R

    Not really sure what that means, but I guess it doesn't matter, there's so much stuff about movies and the technical aspects behind it and I'll probably never understand the nitty gritty details.

    Whereas a normal film was one 35mm print on one screen when projected, Cinerama was three 35mm prints running simultaneously, side by side on three screens.

    In other words, Brothers Grimm used three times as much film as a normal film of equal length and so a restoration would mean three times the work and so three times the cost.

  108. I see its faults clearly, but I retain from my preteen youth (when I first saw it) my delight with the film especially the fairy tales themselves. Those marvelous MGM fantasies of the era: The Time Machine, Brothers Grimm, The 7 Faces of Dr. Lao just enchanted me so much as a kid that the joy they offered me has lingered within me to this day.

  109. It's kind of ridiculous to expect any great profits on any classic movie disc anymore period, no matter what the title. How much do you think the Museo Nazionale del Cinema in Turin expected to make on their incredibly expensive and exhaustive restoration of the 1914 Cabiria? A Grimm project with the three 35 panels would be expensive, sure, but how about a nice surviving 35mm non-roadshow print if one exists. Hell, Turin didn't even offer a DVD much less a BD of Cabiria and probably never will. Seems movies are often saved for "historical relevance", whatever that means and to whom. WB may do it for the future HD rental downloads from whatever present service survives the next few decades. In that, it seems Grimm has something of a chance in that it is one of a very few "real" Cinerama dramatic pieces with seminal actors and actresses involved. Don't underestimate the nostalgia value of George Pal either. The alternative is to give it that good old Alamo treatment, which is to say let what's left of it fade or deteriorate into history. I, for one, would hate to see that happen. But, who am I or any of us who care about it?

  110. Ed: I agree and just had to chime in to give you support. Actually, the US laserdisc release is from a 35mm print of "Grimm" but the quality isn't very good; however, it's better than nothing since there wasn't even a commercial DVD release. I wish some members of the Pal family would petition WB to restore this film in honor of George, if nothing else. I know one of his sons did the stop motion animation of the Puppertoons for the fairy tale of "The Elves and the Shoemaker," and possibly the dragon sequence as well. Here's something interesting: I was reading some info on "Brothers Grimm" on the TCM website(Turner Classic Movies) and the statement was made that "Brothers Grimm" was photographed in 70mm and NOT in 3-strip Cinerama! I thought …"say what???" I wonder where they got that hair-brained idea, which of course, is untrue.

  111. William Moore

    I know one of his sons did the stop motion animation of the Puppertoons for the fairy tale of "The Elves and the Shoemaker," and possibly the dragon sequence as well.

    A little off topic but I thought I read he did the stop motion for the decaying Morlock in The Time Machine as well.

  112. Tommy R

    Not really sure what that means, but I guess it doesn't matter, there's so much stuff about movies and the technical aspects behind it and I'll probably never understand the nitty gritty details.

    to give you an idea how much more film you have to scan with cinerama compared to a film shot in 35mm scope and in good condition which would mean no need to go to separations:

    Cinerama has 6 perforations vs normal film 4 perforations so that is about 1.5 times as much film running through the scanner for each panel. As Cinerama has three panels you have to multiply that by 3 and you get 4.5 times more film.
    Then it gets really bad if you have to go back to separations as at that point we are talking about 13.5 times as much film running through the scanner and getting back from separations to a good registration and resolution for each individual film strip is already a lot of effort, you can take that times three of course as we have three panels.

    Then add the fact that extra work has to be performed to make join lines disappear and to adjust registration and color of the three panels to get a really good match and you could easily be looking at a 20 to 30 times higher budget compared to a scope movie in good condition.

  113. OliverK

    to give you an idea how much more film you have to scan with cinerama compared to a film shot in 35mm scope and in good condition which would mean no need to go to separations:

    Cinerama has 6 perforations vs normal film 4 perforations so that is about 1.5 times as much film running through the scanner for each panel. As Cinerama has three panels you have to multiply that by 3 and you get 4.5 times more film.
    Then it gets really bad if you have to go back to separations as at that point we are talking about 13.5 times as much film running through the scanner and getting back from separations to a good registration and resolution for each individual film strip is already a lot of effort, you can take that times three of course as we have three panels.

    Then add the fact that extra work has to be performed to make join lines disappear and to adjust registration and color of the three panels to get a really good match and you could easily be looking at a 20 to 30 times higher budget compared to a scope movie in good condition.

    I wouldn't like to see the joining lines between the panels, disappear as they were part of the Cinerama experience. They never bothered me when I saw all the original films many times more than half a century ago.

  114. cinemiracle

    I wouldn't like to see the joining lines between the panels, disappear as they were part of the Cinerama experience. They never bothered me when I saw all the original films many times more than half a century ago.

    I have edited my post accordingly as I agree that making them disappear is not the wording I should have used.
    Still I do not really see a point in keeping them more visible than necessary so they would still be visible to a degree as they were with all cinerama movies that made it to Blu-ray.

  115. cinemiracle

    I wouldn't like to see the joining lines between the panels, disappear as they were part of the Cinerama experience. They never bothered me when I saw all the original films many times more than half a century ago.

    I have edited my post accordingly as I agree that making them disappear is not the wording I should have used.
    Still I do not really see a point in keeping them more visible than necessary so they would still be visible to a degree as they were with all cinerama movies that made it to Blu-ray.

  116. William Moore

    I was reading some info on "Brothers Grimm" on the TCM website(Turner Classic Movies) and the statement was made that "Brothers Grimm" was photographed in 70mm and NOT in 3-strip Cinerama! I thought …"say what???" I wonder where they got that hair-brained idea, which of course, is untrue.

    I'm not seeing it on their site. I do see the following which is correct.

    View attachment 49399

  117. William Moore

    I was reading some info on "Brothers Grimm" on the TCM website(Turner Classic Movies) and the statement was made that "Brothers Grimm" was photographed in 70mm and NOT in 3-strip Cinerama! I thought …"say what???" I wonder where they got that hair-brained idea, which of course, is untrue.

    I'm not seeing it on their site. I do see the following which is correct.

    View attachment 49399

  118. RolandL

    I'm not seeing it on their site. I do see the following which is correct.

    View attachment 49399

    Well, I didn't make this up. Go to the TCM website and type "Wonderful World of the Brothers Grimm" in their search bar. That should take you to the "Film Article" page which is divided into three sections. The middle section, I believe, contains the article which contains the incorrect information regarding filming of the movie.

  119. OliverK

    to give you an idea how much more film you have to scan with cinerama compared to a film shot in 35mm scope and in good condition which would mean no need to go to separations:

    Cinerama has 6 perforations vs normal film 4 perforations so that is about 1.5 times as much film running through the scanner for each panel. As Cinerama has three panels you have to multiply that by 3 and you get 4.5 times more film.
    Then it gets really bad if you have to go back to separations as at that point we are talking about 13.5 times as much film running through the scanner and getting back from separations to a good registration and resolution for each individual film strip is already a lot of effort, you can take that times three of course as we have three panels.

    Then add the fact that extra work has to be performed to make join lines less visible and to adjust registration and color of the three panels to get a really good match and you could easily be looking at a 20 to 30 times higher budget compared to a scope movie in good condition.

    And it's already been stated repeatedly that this would require going back to the separations. But everyone thinks it's so easy, so perhaps one of these fellows would like to put up the money to do it and offer that to Warners. They probably still wouldn't do it.

  120. haineshisway

    And it's already been stated repeatedly that this would require going back to the separations. But everyone thinks it's so easy, so perhaps one of these fellows would like to put up the money to do it and offer that to Warners. They probably still wouldn't do it.

    Not too many individuals with pockets deep enough to pay for doing Grimm properly, I doubt that anybody has approached Warner about it.

    Paul Allen might do it and also order a brand new print that can be shown at the Seattle Cinerama.

  121. William Moore

    Well, I didn't make this up. Go to the TCM website and type "Wonderful World of the Brothers Grimm" in their search bar. That should take you to the "Film Article" page which is divided into three sections. The middle section, I believe, contains the article which contains the incorrect information regarding filming of the movie.

    Yeah, that's wrong. I think the writer must have read an article on the Puppetoon sequence. The stop motion animation was filmed with one camera not three.

  122. RolandL

    Yeah, that's wrong. I think the writer must have read an article on the Puppetoon sequence. The stop motion animation was filmed with one camera not three.

    Yes, now that you bring this up I remembered reading at the time the film was released that the stop motion sequence was shot in 65mm with one camera, whereas the rest of the film was shot in (what was then) the traditional Cinerama process of 3 cameras.

  123. mark brown

    While he is at it, maybe Mr. Allen wouldn't mind underwriting the restoration of The Alamo as well!

    Given the fact that he owns a cinerama movie theater and that Grimm is one of only two non-travelogue cinerama movies I thought that Mr. Allen is indeed somebody who may have an interest to put up the funds for it.

    Not sure what interest he would have in The Alamo and a better fit for the ultrawide cinerama screen would probably be both Around the World in 80 days due to its bug eye shot sequences or Raintree County due to its ultrawide aspect ratio (that so far nobody has seen inside a cinema).

    But hey, I'll take any one of these titles on Blu-ray or even better UHD, no questions asked 🙂

  124. And while Mr. Allen's wallet is opened, maybe he could also finance a 4K remastering (plus whatever restoration work might be needed) for two Ultra Panavision Cinerama films, THE GREATEST STORY EVER TOLD and THE HALLELUJAH TRAIL, both of whose existing Blu-Ray releases are notorious for their poor quality.,

  125. RichMurphy

    And while Mr. Allen's wallet is opened, maybe he could also finance a 4K remastering (plus whatever restoration work might be needed) for two Ultra Panavision Cinerama films, THE GREATEST STORY EVER TOLD and THE HALLELUJAH TRAIL, both of whose existing Blu-Ray releases are notorious for their poor quality.,

    That'll be the day!

  126. Brothers Grimm Puppetoons seq. (according to David Pal and Norman Karlin, assist. editor) was shot with a single 6-perf Mitchell camera (maybe from Windjammer?)
    Camera rotated to the 3 positions for A,B,C panels so not Ultra Panavision

  127. Strohmaier

    Brothers Grimm Puppetoons seq. (according to David Pal and Norman Karlin, assist. editor) was shot with a single 6-perf Mitchell camera (maybe from Windjammer?)
    Camera rotated to the 3 positions for A,B,C panels so not Ultra Panavision

    Mr. Strohmeier: If I may ask, what is the holdup, besides money, in restoring "Brothers Grimm." Thanks!

  128. William Moore

    Mr. Strohmeier: If I may ask, what is the holdup, besides money, in restoring "Brothers Grimm." Thanks!

    Besides money? It all ends up back at money. A massive amount of labor and work – which all ends up back at money.

  129. Members: There is no need for snark. Let's stay on topic if you're going to post in the thread.

    William: You can ask all the questions you want (this is, after all, your thread), but I think Dave has already answered your latest question on the first page of this thread. And I'd add that I think you can trust the majority of analysis that's already been provided in this thread as to why the project is unlikely to proceed.

  130. William Moore

    Mr. Strohmeier: If I may ask, what is the holdup, besides money, in restoring "Brothers Grimm." Thanks!

    If you come up with enough money to do it there is no reason to assume that Warner would not start working on Brothers Grimm so the correct question would probably be how much money they think they need.

    If they do it themselves I would however assume that it may take some time until they get around to it as any way you slice it we are talking about Grimm taking up resources that could be used on many other movies that are shorter, in better condition and most importantly not shot in cinerama.

  131. William Moore

    Mr. Strohmeier: If I may ask, what is the holdup, besides money, in restoring "Brothers Grimm." Thanks!

    The fact that it's with WB I would think.

    If it belonged to Cinerama 100%, I expect they would have worked with David Strohmaier and done everything conceivable to get it done to the highest possible standard on an appropriate budget, and I would guess it'd probably outsell every other Cinerama title they have released through Flicker Alley to date.

    haineshisway

    But let's just have reality, shall we? Cheerleading is fun, sure, but keep it real. Brothers Grimm was the 15th highest grossing film of 1962, if you believe Wikipedia. It grossed approximately 8.9 million dollars on a budget of 6.25 – that makes it a flop, I'm afraid, and a rather large one.

    That is still a substantial gross for the time. The fact they lost money on it decades ago is only a function of it being such a lavish and elaborate production on a major budget. A film that sold that many tickets, that was seen by that many people, is a film that will still be of interest today.

  132. Was it the process that was the interest or the film that was of interest. I would suppose it was the process. In the US it was released before HTWWW, so it was the first Cinerama film to tell a story and had well known actors. That to me was what sold tickets. If it was as accepted as HTWWW was, then the gross for Grimm should be much higher

  133. Interdimensional

    The fact that it's with WB I would think.

    If it belonged to Cinerama 100%, I expect they would have worked with David Strohmaier and done everything conceivable to get it done to the highest possible standard on an appropriate budget, and I would guess it'd probably outsell every other Cinerama title they have released through Flicker Alley to date.

    That is still a substantial gross for the time. The fact they lost money on it decades ago is only a function of it being such a lavish and elaborate production on a major budget. A film that sold that many tickets, that was seen by that many people, is a film that will still be of interest today.

    Ed: I agree completely with your comments and I feel that "How The West Was Won" was more popular, first because it was a western and secondly, had way more stars to attract viewers and, let's face it, back in the day "starpower" sold tickets, Cinerama or not. I know I have been accused of "beating a dead horse" in this thread, but as someone who was associated with Cinerama when "Brothers Grimm" was released and who continued his love for and interest in this medium for over 50 years, I am dreaming of the day when I will hold in my hand and play in my home theatre the restored version of this legendary Cinerama movie.

  134. Interdimensional

    The fact that it's with WB I would think.
    If it belonged to Cinerama 100%, I expect they would have worked with David Strohmaier and done everything conceivable to get it done to the highest possible standard on an appropriate budget, and I would guess it'd probably outsell every other Cinerama title they have released through Flicker Alley to date.

    There is no reason to believe that Warner would not work on Grimm if it wasn't such a costly endeavour. So if you take out the question of money there is no holdup.

    Interdimensional

    That is still a substantial gross for the time. The fact they lost money on it decades ago is only a function of it being such a lavish and elaborate production on a major budget. A film that sold that many tickets, that was seen by that many people, is a film that will still be of interest today.

    Yes it was a successful movie at the time but as has been said a big part of that was certainly the Cinerama process.
    And even if it was not the Cinerama process that increased the box office revenue we can safely say that the Brothers Grimm are not exactly timeless material that is of great interest for a modern audience nor can that be said for the "special effects" scenes of the movie.

    And I am saying that as somebody who never saw the movie except for a few snipplets and I would LOVE to finally be able to see it in a proper fashion on Blu-ray or even UHD – the resolution is certainly there.

  135. ahollis

    Was it the process that was the interest or the film that was of interest. I would suppose it was the process. In the US it was released before HTWWW, so it was the first Cinerama film to tell a story and had well known actors. That to me was what sold tickets. If it was as accepted as HTWWW was, then the gross for Grimm should be much higher

    Most of the Cinerama documentaries contained segments that told a story and had well-know actors in the film. SOUTH-SEAS ADVENTURE, for example had several actors in the Australian outback sequence including one actor from Disney's PRINCE AND THE PAUPER. Could the documentaries also be classed as only partial documentaries? SEVEN WONDERS OF THE WORLD also had actors playing some parts.

  136. William Moore

    Ed: I agree completely with your comments and I feel that "How The West Was Won" was more popular, first because it was a western and secondly, had way more stars to attract viewers and, let's face it, back in the day "starpower" sold tickets, Cinerama or not. I know I have been accused of "beating a dead horse" in this thread, but as someone who was associated with Cinerama when "Brothers Grimm" was released and who continued his love for and interest in this medium for over 50 years, I am dreaming of the day when I will hold in my hand and play in my home theatre the restored version of this legendary Cinerama movie.

    Nothing wrong with dreaming about seeing one of your favorite movies again.

    Too bad that it may also be one of the hardest to restore based on condition of the elements, the nature of the process and the sheer volume of film stock involved.

    And yes, if one was willing to get together something watchable without a 7 digit budget it would help if cinerama inc. held all of the rights to Grimm.

  137. cinemiracle

    Most of the Cinerama documentaries contained segments that told a story and had well-know actors in the film. SOUTH-SEAS ADVENTURE, for example had several actors in the Australian outback sequence including one actor from Disney's PRINCE AND THE PAUPER. Could the documentaries also be classed as only partial documentaries? SEVEN WONDERS OF THE WORLD also had actors playing some parts.

    I have all the Cinerama travelogues and none have stars the the caliber and popularity of the ones in WWOBG. Except for a Narrator or two, none were advertised either.

  138. At the risk of contributing to the longevity of this thread when it seems to be an open and shut case if "too expensive", what about crowd-funding? Since it seems to be in an unfortunately unique set of circumstances, I for one am interested enough in the preservation of this film to put in 100 bucks. Are there not 10,000 other people out there who would do the same? 😀

  139. Tommy R

    At the risk of contributing to the longevity of this thread when it seems to be an open and shut case if "too expensive", what about crowd-funding? Since it seems to be in an unfortunately unique set of circumstances, I for one am interested enough in the preservation of this film to put in 100 bucks. Are there not 10,000 other people out there who would do the same? 😀

    Some posts back, I made the suggestion of starting a "Go Fund Me" page to raise money, but no one seemed to be inspired to get involved. BTW, what is the difference between "crown funding" and "go fund me?" I have no experience with either.

  140. Matt Hough

    I believe someone said Warner Brothers would never sanction such a thing (but they certainly followed through with the movie of Veronica Mars which was crowd sourced).

    I think the difference with the Veronica Mars movie was that it was run and created by the actual people behind the original series, rather than a group of well-meaning and enthusiastic amateurs.

  141. If this is true, then what the F is Warner's problem?

    1. They won't restore it because of the money. Perfectly understandable, but…
    2. They allegedly won't accept strangers' money to restore it, and…
    3. They won't release it in any form at all if it doesn't meet their "standards".

    Seems quite unreasonable. I know a crowd-funding campaign would be far fetched as the goal would be seven figures, but if they really won't even accept it if the funds came through, then what the heck?

  142. Tommy R

    I for one am interested enough in the preservation of this film to put in 100 bucks. Are there not 10,000 other people out there who would do the same? 😀

    Not only do I seriously doubt there are 10,000 people out there who would cough up $100, I seriously doubt Wonderful World Of The Brothers Grimm would sell 10,000 copies!

  143. Thomas T

    Not only do I seriously doubt there are 10,000 people out there who would cough up $100, I seriously doubt Wonderful World Of The Brothers Grimm would sell 10,000 copies!

    I was thinking the exact same thing.

  144. Tommy R

    If this is true, then what the F is Warner's problem?

    1. They won't restore it because of the money. Perfectly understandable, but…
    2. They allegedly won't accept strangers' money to restore it, and…
    3. They won't release it in any form at all if it doesn't meet their "standards".

    Seems quite unreasonable. I know a crowd-funding campaign would be far fetched as the goal would be seven figures, but if they really won't even accept it if the funds came through, then what the heck?

    Their sandbox – their rules.

  145. I have mentioned this before, but there is a group called "Friends of the Brothers Grimm" who started a petition two years or so ago and amassed a few hundred signatures in hopes of persuading WB to restore WWOTBG. I think that petition is still on Facebook, so check it out and sign up!!

  146. Thomas T

    Not only do I seriously doubt there are 10,000 people out there who would cough up $100, I seriously doubt Wonderful World Of The Brothers Grimm would sell 10,000 copies!

    They wouldn't sell 3000 copies. This isn't brain surgery.

  147. And I'm sorry, but having a post pulled down because I agreed with another poster that the repetition here is very tiresome, on it goes. At what point do we have some new information or thoughts, because this is "around and around she goes and where she stops nobody knows." 🙂

  148. ahollis

    Was it the process that was the interest or the film that was of interest. I would suppose it was the process. In the US it was released before HTWWW, so it was the first Cinerama film to tell a story and had well known actors. That to me was what sold tickets. If it was as accepted as HTWWW was, then the gross for Grimm should be much higher

    There's never any clear way to know just what it is about a film that draws the crowds. Format novelty? Production quality? Subject matter? Star power? Special effects? It's always going to be a combination of factors. My guess would be that there may have been a ceiling to the amount of people willing to see that kind of fantasy at that point in time, and they may have also limited their audience with scenes like the Puppetoon sequence creating a perception that this was a movie primarily for children. (of course it's a brilliant sequence and one of the highlights of the movie)

    I don't think it's fair to hold up a breakout success like HTWWW for comparison. Wonderful World doesn't become an unpopular film just because it isn't on that level. How the West Was Won with its unprecedented lineup of A-listers was an event film. The majority of features cannot be expected to do anywhere close to that level of business.

    OliverK

    There is no reason to believe that Warner would not work on Grimm if it wasn't such a costly endeavour. So if you take out the question of money there is no holdup.

    Yes it was a successful movie at the time but as has been said a big part of that was certainly the Cinerama process.
    And even if it was not the Cinerama process that increased the box office revenue we can safely say that the Brothers Grimm are not exactly timeless material that is of great interest for a modern audience nor can that be said for the "special effects" scenes of the movie.

    And I am saying that as somebody who never saw the movie except for a few snipplets and I would LOVE to finally be able to see it in a proper fashion on Blu-ray or even UHD – the resolution is certainly there.

    The expense of the restoration is dependent on the involvement of WB. If the restoration could be conducted for a reasonable figure outside of WB, they still wouldn't allow it to happen. If WB undertook a film in this condition, the restoration would be budgeted at a figure that would not recoup its costs. Others have found ways to restore comparable films at budgets appropriate to demand, and with results that were more than acceptable. It is WB policy that makes it financially unfeasible.

    Incidentally, I always thought the stories of the Brothers Grimm were the very definition of timeless. Although the fact that a movie reflects the era in which it was made does not necessarily detract from its entertainment value. The special effects of the movie are from that period where special effects were not so ubiquitous, and actually were something special. Look at the continuing popularity of the work of Harryhausen. There's a handcrafted tactile quality to this stuff that is a lost art, and one develops an appreciation for what was achieved within the technological limitations of the day. It's not about photorealism. It's a charming film with some beautiful and magical passages, and I hope you get to see it at some point.

  149. You all can keep posting about the thread (rather than the topic) and I'll just keep deleting the posts. (More posts have just been deleted.)

    THAT…is what's tiresome. And besides the post deletions, there will be other penalties to follow.

    And as a reminder, publicly questioning a moderator's actions is also against our rules. Rule 18. There's a pretty severe penalty for that, too. Just sayin'.

    If you don't want to post about the topic of this thread, don't post.

  150. haineshisway

    They wouldn't sell 3000 copies. This isn't brain surgery.

    Hate to aks you this but it is on topic so in case you still read this:

    Do you have some sales number for other Cinerama titles except of course HTWWW that let you make this very definite statement?
    I understand that you may not be at liberty to talk exact numbers but I always wondered if these titles were even getting to 4 digit sales numbers.

    For Grimm I did not really think about it much as with this being a Warner title and its condition being so probematic not even 30000 copies would be nearly enough to recover the costs of a Warner style restoration.

  151. William Moore

    I have mentioned this before, but there is a group called "Friends of the Brothers Grimm" who started a petition two years or so ago and amassed a few hundred signatures in hopes of persuading WB to restore WWOTBG. I think that petition is still on Facebook, so check it out and sign up!!

    Almost 20,000 have signed this petition asking LG to add 3D to one of their TV models in the future. LG is not interested. A few hundred is not going to convince WB.

  152. Mike Frezon

    You all can keep posting about the thread (rather than the topic) and I'll just keep deleting the posts. (More posts have just been deleted.)

    THAT…is what's tiresome. And besides the post deletions, there will be other penalties to follow.

    And as a reminder, publicly questioning a moderator's actions is also against our rules. Rule 18. There's a pretty severe penalty for that, too. Just sayin'.

    If you don't want to post about the topic of this thread, don't post.

    Mike: I'm a little confused as to which recent post your "scolding" was directed. (Hopefully NOT #202)

  153. RolandL

    Almost 20,000 have signed this petition asking LG to add 3D to one of their TV models in the future. LG is not interested. A few hundred is not going to convince WB.

    Well, maybe not but if more signers can be "rounded up" who knows what could happen. Personally, I'm not ready to give up just yet!

  154. William Moore

    Well, maybe not but if more signers can be "rounded up" who knows what could happen. Personally, I'm not ready to give up just yet!

    Never give up hoping. (I don't.) Just don't expect everybody else to share your optimism in the face of financial reality.

    If I had my way all of my childhood favorites (and TWWOTBG definitely is on that list) would be in my library, and I would contribute time and funds to their restoration. But I'm just one of a handful of fans that feel that way. WHV isn't a charity, and this charming film isn't CITIZEN KANE. I will quietly hope for a miracle.

  155. At the risk of setting off another shit storm in this thread I have another question regarding the feasibility of using other elements like film prints to bring it to DVD/Blu-ray. Now I know it's been said Warner isn't willing to do that because of their own policy on quality. But if they had a change of heart, would THAT route be super expensive too? Or would that be a pretty doable thing?

    Sorry if this is one of the things addressed in this thread already, but I've been through the whole thread twice already and still trying to think different hypotheticals. I remember back in the early days of DVD, early 00's, there were all kinds of things people would say on here "would never happen" to various degrees of certainty, but then things would seem to change and these releases would eventually come to pass, even if it was several years after the fact of very certain doom saying.

    Again, not trying to beat a dead horse, just trying to look at this at all the angles and hypotheticals. I DO know that it's been said that Warner wouldn't release a sub-quality product, but i was just wondering if the cost of this way to release it would be too expensive as well. I haven't seen any reference to that. Again, sorry, I'm not trying to tick anyone off.

  156. William Moore

    Mike: I'm a little confused as to which recent post your "scolding" was directed. (Hopefully NOT #202)

    William: All the posts that have been tacked onto the thread that were not on-topic have been deleted.

    I realize it gets confusing and it's why we wish members would understand what we are trying to accomplish here and would cooperate.

    And once they are removed and I make a post asking for the rules to be followed, there is a disconnect as there is no visible reminder about the offending posts which I am referencing.

    And now, here we are again with a couple more posts that are not on the topic of "Brothers Grimm." <sigh>

  157. Tommy R

    At the risk of setting off another shit storm in this thread I have another question regarding the feasibility of using other elements like film prints to bring it to DVD/Blu-ray. Now I know it's been said Warner isn't willing to do that because of their own policy on quality. But if they had a change of heart, would THAT route be super expensive too? Or would that be a pretty doable thing?

    Hi Tommy, please see Dave Strohmaier's post from earlier in this thread:
    http://brokenbowcabincleaning.com/co…-worth-on-brothers-grimm.358328/#post-4637268

    He addresses how he would restore the film if he was given the greenlight to do so on a smaller budget based on his successes with his recent Windjammer restoration project.

  158. Tommy R

    At the risk of setting off another shit storm in this thread I have another question regarding the feasibility of using other elements like film prints to bring it to DVD/Blu-ray. Now I know it's been said Warner isn't willing to do that because of their own policy on quality. But if they had a change of heart, would THAT route be super expensive too? Or would that be a pretty doable thing?

    Sorry if this is one of the things addressed in this thread already, but I've been through the whole thread twice already and still trying to think different hypotheticals. I remember back in the early days of DVD, early 00's, there were all kinds of things people would say on here "would never happen" to various degrees of certainty, but then things would seem to change and these releases would eventually come to pass, even if it was several years after the fact of very certain doom saying.

    Again, not trying to beat a dead horse, just trying to look at this at all the angles and hypotheticals. I DO know that it's been said that Warner wouldn't release a sub-quality product, but i was just wondering if the cost of this way to release it would be too expensive as well. I haven't seen any reference to that. Again, sorry, I'm not trying to tick anyone off.

    Even a decent anamorphic release on DVD would be better than nothing, if they went back to the original 3-panel composite which was used for the LD release and did some improvements on that. Now that wouldn't cost an arm and a leg, would it? And, while I'm at it, just look at all the crap which has been released over the years on DVD, and in some cases BD. I'm sure those movies didn't sell thousands of copies either!

  159. williammoore

    Even a decent anamorphic release on DVD would be better than nothing, if they went back to the original 3-panel composite which was used for the LD release and did some improvements on that. Now that wouldn't cost an arm and a leg, would it?

    Please understand that what you're suggesting (while admirable and certainly technically feasible) does not fit the model of how WHV handles their video properties. They have established a rule of "the best or nothing," and a little thought should probably explain why.

    In the past WAC has released a title or two not in pristine condition and suffered the slings and arrows that goes with putting out product that fans hope to own in big-screen-worthy quality. Look what happened with Olive Film and their HALLELUJAH TRAIL Blu-ray. Not many buyers (read "NOBODY!) accepted Olive's claim that they were releasing an image based on the best available elements. As much as I like the movie I know I will never watch my disc again. Warner surely doesn't want to sell a title like that; their reputation is too valuable.

    I burned a DVD from my TWWOTBG laser-disc, but it compares so poorly to what we expect today that I've never watched it on a screen larger than a 30" 4:3 CRT.

    So those who insist on "owning" a BROTHERS GRIMM video at home will do best to record a TCM showing and make do with that while we wait on the train that is probably never coming unless video technology gets so advanced and inexpensive that a new print can be made from whole cloth.

  160. Dan_Shane

    So those who insist on "owning" a BROTHERS GRIMM video at home will do best to record a TCM showing and make do with that while we wait on the train that is probably never coming unless video technology gets so advanced and inexpensive that a new print can be made from whole cloth.

    This is exactly what I intend on doing. I'd have to double check, but I think it's airing the first week of October.

  161. Dan_Shane

    In the past WAC has released a title or two not in pristine condition and suffered the slings and arrows that goes with putting out product that fans hope to own in big-screen-worthy quality. Look what happened with Olive Film and their HALLELUJAH TRAIL Blu-ray. Not many buyers (read "NOBODY!) accepted Olive's claim that they were releasing an image based on the best available elements. As much as I like the movie I know I will never watch my disc again. Warner surely doesn't want to sell a title like that; their reputation is too valuable.

    Quite right! While there are are small minority (myself among them) of the "better something than nothing at all" school, Hell hath no fury than a certain segment when a blu ray is released in less than pristine condition. These are the same people angry with Warners for "withholding" Around The World In 80 Days, Raintree County, Ryan's Daughter and High Society when the elements are simply not there. Warners knows this and won't release them until they are ready! Crikey, even Warners superb restoration of Seven Brides For Seven Brothers got taken to task because the dancing feet sounds were "off".

  162. Thomas T

    These are the same people angry with Warners for "withholding" Around The World In 80 Days, Raintree County, Ryan's Daughter and High Society when the elements are simply not there. Warners knows this and won't release them until they are ready!

    Ryan's Daughter might not belong on that list. There are reports of people having seen a digital version of the show that is close to perfection, and rumors persist that a Blu-ray could be forthcoming. I'm always skeptical of these forecasts, but I will say that what I streamed on Warner Archive was quite lovely.

  163. Dan_Shane

    Please understand that what you're suggesting (while admirable and certainly technically feasible) does not fit the model of how WHV handles their video properties. They have established a rule of "the best or nothing," and a little thought should probably explain why.

    In the past WAC has released a title or two not in pristine condition and suffered the slings and arrows that goes with putting out product that fans hope to own in big-screen-worthy quality. Look what happened with Olive Film and their HALLELUJAH TRAIL Blu-ray. Not many buyers (read "NOBODY!) accepted Olive's claim that they were releasing an image based on the best available elements. As much as I like the movie I know I will never watch my disc again. Warner surely doesn't want to sell a title like that; their reputation is too valuable.

    I burned a DVD from my TWWOTBG laser-disc, but it compares so poorly to what we expect today that I've never watched it on a screen larger than a 30" 4:3 CRT.

    So those who insist on "owning" a BROTHERS GRIMM video at home will do best to record a TCM showing and make do with that while we wait on the train that is probably never coming unless video technology gets so advanced and inexpensive that a new print can be made from whole cloth.

    First of all, IMHO not every movie in one's collection has to be a "bit perfect" copy of the original. In fact, I still watch a number of DVDs which I have determined are good enough to enjoy without having to purchase another copy in "the next great format to come along." There's certainly nothing wrong with a well-mastered anamorphically-produced DVD. I own the original LD release of "Brothers Grimm, " which I view from time to time and recently I located a Japanese release of this film on LD, which supposedly is the same version TCM plays sans the Japanese subtitles. I paid nearly $150 for this and when I played it back, I was very disappointed. Despite the fact that it had the missing footage from the prologue, and somewhat better color, I felt the sound wasn't as good as the US release and it seemed like the image was "grainer" as well. Also, the "scope" image wasn't as tall. Thankfully, the seller allowed me to return it for a partial refund. It may be that TCM adds some processing which improves the presentation but I can't get that channel and I don't have a DVR. So, I'll be "stuck" with my LD but the quality isn't so bad that it ruins the viewing experience for me of this wonderful Cinerama presentation.

  164. William Moore

    First of all, IMHO not every movie in one's collection has to be a "bit perfect" copy of the original. In fact, I still watch a number of DVDs which I have determined are good enough to enjoy without having to purchase another copy in "the next great format to come along." There's certainly nothing wrong with a well-mastered anamorphically-produced DVD.

    That's all well and good for you, but – as it's been said multiple times – it's simply not Warner Home Video's policy on the matter. Never will be.

  165. Allansfirebird

    That's all well and good for you, but – as it's been said multiple times – it's simply not Warner Home Video's policy on the matter. Never will be.

    As Bob points out Warner is not 100% consistent and I would be surprised if they don't alter their more restrictive approach even more in the coming years.

    Clearly it does not lead to many Blu-ray releases of movies from problematic elements that aren't selling in big numbers. Large format / big negative area movies and longer movies are also at an inherent disadvantage with such a policy due to the sheer amount of film processing that has to be done even if one isn't working from separations.
    A 2+ hour long historical epic from the 50s or 60s that was shot in Warner, Eastman or Metrocolor will obviously be already at a big disadvantage compared to a 75 minute black and white b-movie from the same time period even if the elements of both movies are in good shape considering their age.

    That being said we are not in a position to demand for Warner's policy to change but it cannot hurt to let them know from time to time that most of us prefer less than excellent over nothing at all for year after year.

  166. Bob Furmanek

    What about the Bowery Boys series where a number of titles were released on the Warner Archive sets from subpar 16mm elements?

    The necessity for perfection only seems to hold true for WA Blu-ray releases. Many of the WA DVD releases are from mediocre elements.

  167. The VHS is the only copy of TWWOTBG I have, and it looks horrible. Though I do hardly ever watch it, the only reason is because I have my VCR packed away. It's one of the last VHS copies in my collection not on DVD (I think The Nude Bomb will be the final VHS movie I own not released on disc, and I don't watch THAT one because it's a horrible movie, lol). I certainly want good PQ when watching movies, but I can still watch a VHS and get lost in the movie without thinking about that sort of thing.

    I'll be happy to have the TCM recording on my DVR come October 1st, but I'd feel more secure in owning it on physical media. None the less, I can't wait to watch it since I'm sure it'll look better than my VHS.

  168. OliverK

    As Bob points out Warner is not 100% consistent and I would be surprised if they don't alter their more restrictive approach even more in the coming years.

    Hopefully, since their currently policy seemingly precludes anything made before 1954.

    Even besides BROTHERS GRIMM, when was the last time they put out a B/W Academy ratio Pre-Code?

  169. Ken_Martinez

    Hopefully, since their currently policy seemingly precludes anything made before 1954. Even besides BROTHERS GRIMM, when was the last time they put out a B/W Academy ratio Pre-Code?

    The Warners Archives are generously filled with B&W Academy ratio pre-codes. But if you're talking blu ray, c'mon, do you really believe there's a profitable market for B&W pre code films on blu ray?

  170. Bob Furmanek

    What about the Bowery Boys series where a number of titles were released on the Warner Archive sets from subpar 16mm elements?

    Were they DVDs or Blu-ray discs? Warner Archive is running two separate lines with two distinct philosophies. Their MOD (DVD-R) division pays little attention to picture quality, and I have several discs produced from very sub-standard elements. Their Blu-ray division is the opposite and seems to choose films whose elements provide the means to produce very high quality discs at moderate cost.

  171. This is why I can’t understand why people did not, and do not buy recordable DVD players. The last time I looked the Marantz copy I bought last was still available from Walmart on line. “Mother pin a rose on me”, but I have two of them and with TCM showing classic recordable movies, I have hundreds of discs I have made.

    Sure they are only standard definition, but my collection now includes many many “only game in town” discs that have not made it to Blu ray, and many that have never even been put on DVD. I also have many more DVD-Rs of movies that I have recorded at a very modest cost that I would ever be able to afford to buy. This is not even mentioning TV shows like “Galavant”.

  172. Thomas T

    The Warners Archives are generously filled with B&W Academy ratio pre-codes. But if you're talking blu ray, c'mon, do you really believe there's a profitable market for B&W pre code films on blu ray?

    I don't know. Is there a profitable market for Seven Brides For Seven Brothers or The Colussus of Rhodes?

  173. Warner’s has past sales numbers for titles sold on DVD and DVDr. I would suppose that those numbers are a major influence on what they release as WAC Blu-ray. I pretty sure they just don’t pull titles from the air.

  174. Warner’s has past sales numbers for titles sold on DVD and DVDr. I would suppose that those numbers are a major influence on what they release as WAC Blu-ray. I pretty sure they just don’t pull titles from the air.

  175. TJPC

    This is why I can’t understand why people did not, and do not buy recordable DVD players. The last time I looked the Marantz copy I bought last was still available from Walmart on line.

    Is this essentially a VCR but for DVD's? If so I had no idea such a thing existed. I will definitely look into this.

  176. Ken_Martinez

    I don't know. Is there a profitable market for Seven Brides For Seven Brothers or The Colussus of Rhodes? Is there a profitable market for anything that's not recent or genre?

    While the market for "classic" films is certainly dwindling (and probably at an all time low), musicals (especially in color) and peplum still have their fans (though at this point in time, perhaps cult is a better word) and along with horror and sci-fi have respectable sales. Pre-code B&W films? I seriously doubt the money invested in restoring them to acceptable HD quality (what's the point if they are only marginally better than their DVD counterparts) would reap much profits on a blu ray release.

  177. Thomas T

    While the market for "classic" films is certainly dwindling (and probably at an all time low), musicals (especially in color) and peplum still have their fans (though at this point in time, perhaps cult is a better word) and along with horror and sci-fi have respectable sales. Pre-code B&W films? I seriously doubt the money invested in restoring them to acceptable HD quality (what's the point if they are only marginally better than their DVD counterparts) would reap much profits on a blu ray release.

    That's assuming all of them would take the mammoth effort to put out as Brother Grimm.

  178. TJPC

    This is why I can’t understand why people did not, and do not buy recordable DVD players. The last time I looked the Marantz copy I bought last was still available from Walmart on line. “Mother pin a rose on me”, but I have two of them and with TCM showing classic recordable movies, I have hundreds of discs I have made.

    Sure they are only standard definition, but my collection now includes many many “only game in town” discs that have not made it to Blu ray, and many that have never even been put on DVD. I also have many more DVD-Rs of movies that I have recorded at a very modest cost that I would ever be able to afford to buy. This is not even mentioning TV shows like “Galavant”.

    I have a video to dvd and also a dvd to dvd recorder but never use them any more. I got rid of all my videos years ago.If I want to make a copy of a dvd or bluray then I just use my computer which can also copy from bluray to dvd and that includes double layer discs. Much simpler than using 2 recorders linked together. My programme also removes regional coding. Its all for free which is a bonus.Only have to pay for the blank discs.

  179. My DVD recorders are used exclusively for recording on air programs, each having a hard drive for editing. If it seems likely that the show will be put on disc commercially, I use DVDRWs so they can be reused. For things like all the musical numbers from the Tony awards — which I have back to my Beta days, I make permanent discs.

    I also use my computer to make DVDs, but need to buy a new set up for Blu ray to DVDr.

  180. William Moore

    Well, I discovered that my Dish subscription didn't allow me to watch the TCM movie channel, so I'm just wondering if the showing of WWOTBG today was any different than previous showings on TCM. Your impressions?

    No different at all. Seemed exactly like the same transfer we've been shown for years on TCM. I recorded it anyway and started watching. I got through the beginning of "The Singing Bone."

  181. William Moore

    Well, I discovered that my Dish subscription didn't allow me to watch the TCM movie channel, so I'm just wondering if the showing of WWOTBG today was any different than previous showings on TCM. Your impressions?

    Laserdisc master upscaled. Turned it off pretty quickly.

  182. atcolomb

    Saw the broadcast too and it did look like a laserdisc master. I also switched channels after 15 minutes of watching it.

    Yes, 4K upscaling did this transfer absolutely no favors. Impossible to make something beautiful from such pallid raw ingredients.

  183. Thomas T

    The Warners Archives are generously filled with B&W Academy ratio pre-codes. But if you're talking blu ray, c'mon, do you really believe there's a profitable market for B&W pre code films on blu ray?

    Dear Thomas:

    Understanding your point quite clearly, I think it is also important to point out that the real challenge for all of the studios today is how to preserve their rapidly decaying history in any format that will outlast the current technological race to the top that has all but wiped out chances of seeing a goodly number of these much desirable classics on home video. The problem here is that our hardware format war has become entrenched in a sort of techno-stalemate, leaving studios to grapple with multiple formats at the same time.

    How many times do you see a release that reads, '4K Blu-ray, Blu-ray, DVD, Digital' combo. This is absurd – and expensive. When DVD entered the market place it all but wiped out VHS and LaserDisc with its tsunami-esque overnight popularity. The studios understood this and shifted their focus. VHS/Beta were dead and gone and the digital race was on. But ever since, studios have been reluctant to pitch another format under the bus.

    Honestly, since you can Roku/Netflix/Movies on Demand just about anything these days, is there really a market for studio's wasting their time on providing us with digital copies. Also, DVD is done. It has been for some time and it is high time it were retired. The TV/projector race for 4K has moved on. Industry standards are so far above DVD it makes the format moot. Besides, for those who refuse to upgrade their vast DVD collections, they can still be played on a new 4K player. So, backward compatibility is not the issue here.

    We're not saying to collectors 'junk your old stuff for the new' as studios did when they effectively killed off VHS/Beta and LaserDisc in the mid-1990s without a thought for apologizing for the ax. We're merely saying to collectors, 'hey, we've something new – better too, and from now on, try this instead. You can still watch your old stuff on our new machines. But from now on, buy the new software too to get the best experience possible. Cheers!'

    See, in the early VHS/Beta years, quality was not an issue as the format's overall lack of resolution, coupled with television's grotesque limitations to reproduce anything even remotely film-like, bred an entire generation of avid movie lovers who watched 'old' movies at home in conditions that, from today's technologically superior advantages, we find quaint to downright laughable.

    I recently pulled out a tired old copy of the Bond film, Octopussy on VHS. I kept it for nostalgia and the great gate fold cover art that accompanied these original VHS anniversary editions. Anyway, still in possession of a VCR (which hasn't been hooked up to anything in over 3 decades, I decided to conduct an experiment and wire it to my 4K set and also, an old tube TV (23 inch) we keep in the garage, just to listen to the news and such while we're out doing auto repairs, yard work, etc. What an eye-opening experience. What was deemed as acceptable in, say 1985, looked utterly horrendous on both sets – blurry, grainy, faded, etc. It also shows how far we have come in our expectations for something much, much improved and, sadly, will not tolerate anything that seemingly shows even an iota of the ravages of time.

    The problem today is the technology has advanced to such a level as that it at once makes film-like presentations possible, yet costly to conceal these ravages of time. Studios are therefore in a scramble to assess asset quality first, and make an executive judgement on whether or not they can glean something even remotely accessible in a 1080p quality that will satisfy fans and their bottom line. The cut off comes where and to what extent restoration efforts are to be applied to make the presentation as perfect as possible without breaking the bank.

    Personally, I think the real effort today ought to be placed on research in development on how best to streamline the restoration process and software so that costs of both can start to come down. I also think studios should weigh their options – as in, 'this will never be afforded a full restoration so let's just apply some basic dust busting software to eliminate the big blemishes and a tad of color correction so it can get a pass visually' and other efforts the studio deems 'feasible' for the full-on Monty restoration, to be reissued theatrically, or in art houses, with monies raised from private investors and other outside sources like The Film Foundation, the AFI, AMPAS, etc.

    I recall a lot of the Columbia catalog received private endowments as well as third-party funding to get them ready for home video, their efforts advertised and preceding the actual movie on DVD. GoFundMe pages could be set up to help the work and efforts along. Bottom line: there is no easy solution to the dilemma. But a solution – of sorts – needs to be discussed at length so we do not lose the American history of motion pictures to any further neglect of shortsightedness. I believe the studios understand this. But they too are caught in the race against time, trying desperately to juggle profitability with want and need to do right by their deep catalog.

    All that we – the fans – can do, apart from buying out their product when it hits the shelves, is to continue to keep the faith and the argument for more work to be done, as well as the memory of our favorite films, alive: proof positive to the higher ups that the audience hasn't forgotten these pictures and won't let their reputation quietly fade into the night. We're all champions here. Some of us, crusaders too for the cause and the dream and the sincere hope that for some of these golden classics it isn't too late after all.

  184. Matt Hough

    Yes, 4K upscaling did this transfer absolutely no favors. Impossible to make something beautiful from such pallid raw ingredients.

    Had never seen it before, so eagerly tuned in yesterday. It looked awful, and after watching for about an hour, thought, "This isn't such a great movie, period". JMO.

  185. Richard V

    Had never seen it before, so eagerly tuned in yesterday. It looked awful, and after watching for about an hour, thought, "This isn't such a great movie, period". JMO.

    No, it's not great. But it is quite charming, and much of that charm is washed away by an inferior presentation. While the play is usually the thing, an enveloping Cinerama image adds a lot to a less-than-classic tale. I suspect the film would have a better reputation if it had been better maintained and showcased over the years.

  186. Watched The Dancing Princess sequence last night from a dvd prepared by a friend from the laserdisc.
    Cinerama overload which would have had an audience hanging on to their seats.
    The camera upside down under a runaway carriage in for one shot.

    A proper transfer would make this average film something special.,

  187. john a hunter

    Watched The Dancing Princess sequence last night from a dvd prepared by a friend from the laserdisc.
    Cinerama overload which would have had an audience hanging on to their seats.
    The camera upside down under a runaway carriage in for one shot.

    A proper transfer would make this average film something special.,

    The process is the main attraction here so anything below decent HD quality will sadly disappoint.

  188. Richard V

    Had never seen it before, so eagerly tuned in yesterday. It looked awful, and after watching for about an hour, thought, "This isn't such a great movie, period". JMO.

    I'll bet you would have felt differently had you seen "Brothers Grimm" in the full glory of 3-strip Cinerama!

  189. john a hunter

    Watched The Dancing Princess sequence last night from a dvd prepared by a friend from the laserdisc.
    Cinerama overload which would have had an audience hanging on to their seats.
    The camera upside down under a runaway carriage in for one shot.

    A proper transfer would make this average film something special.,

    I disagree that this was just an "average" movie. It is way more than that! And, since it was produced and directed by George Pal, one of the all-time great fantasy-film directors, not to mention being the one of only two dramatic films shot in Cinerama, WWOTBG will always be on my Top Ten list of GREAT movies!!!

  190. OliverK

    The process is the main attraction here so anything below decent HD quality will sadly disappoint.

    I have seen WWOTBG many times, having worked at a Cinerama theatre, and when I play my LD of this great film, it brings back those memories and it's anything but a "sad disappointment."

  191. William Moore

    I have seen WWOTBG many times, having worked at a Cinerama theatre, and when I play my LD of this great film, it brings back those memories and it's anything but a "sad disappointment."

    If you have seen this in cinerama many times you know how great it looked, I cannot see how the picture quality of an LD can be satisfactory then. So to each his own I guess but I do not see the point of watching WWOTBG in LD quality.

  192. I've only ever seen WWOTBG on VHS, and I enjoy the hell out of it. It's a toss up for my 2nd favorite George Pal film between this and Destination Moon. The Time Machine is my #1 favorite.

    I haven't watched the TCM recording yet, but will be soon. I can't imagine it'll be WORSE than the VHS.

  193. OliverK

    If you have seen this in cinerama many times you know how great it looked, I cannot see how the picture quality of an LD can be satisfactory then. So to each his own I guess but I do not see the point of watching WWOTBG in LD quality.

    Better than not watching (enjoying) it at all!

  194. William Moore

    Better than not watching (enjoying) it at all!

    I would watch it in that kind of quality if I knew it will never be available to me by other means but I still hope that I will either make it to one of its rare cinerama screenings, or if that fails for some kind of HD version on home video or as a last resort I'll try to watch one of the remaining 35mm prints.

  195. cinemiracle

    One of the all-time great soundtracks helps make the movie a masterpiece when seen in Cinerama or any other medium.

    All time great scores? I assume you're talking about the other Cinerama feature How The West Was Won (with its stunning Alfred Newman score) as opposed to The Wonderful World Of the Brothers Grimm. I've seen TWWOTBG and can barely remember the music and I'm a positive geek about film scores.

  196. Tommy R

    I've only ever seen WWOTBG on VHS, and I enjoy the hell out of it. It's a toss up for my 2nd favorite George Pal film between this and Destination Moon. The Time Machine is my #1 favorite.

    I haven't watched the TCM recording yet, but will be soon. I can't imagine it'll be WORSE than the VHS.

    The VHS is cropped to 1.33 right? The TCM broadcast will show almost twice that. Below were taken from the internet so they look like crap. I'm just showing about what you would see on VHS compared to the broadcast.

    View attachment 50325

    View attachment 50322
    View attachment 50323
    View attachment 50324

  197. Tommy R

    I haven't watched the TCM recording yet, but will be soon. I can't imagine it'll be WORSE than the VHS.

    Its an almost 30 year old mastertape made from a rather beat-up looking Cinermascope conversion print and the same tape was probably used on that VHS as well. Don't get too excited.

  198. Thomas T

    All time great scores? I assume you're talking about the other Cinerama feature How The West Was Won (with its stunning Alfred Newman score) as opposed to The Wonderful World Of the Brothers Grimm. I've seen TWWOTBG and can barely remember the music and I'm a positive geek about film scores.

    The score was composed by Leigh Harline and is positively delightful!

  199. William Moore

    The score was composed by Leigh Harline and is positively delightful!

    While I wouldn’t go so far as to call Harline’s score for Brothers Grimm one of the all-time greats, it’s still a very good score with an extremely catchy main theme, plus I adore the Gypsy Rhapsody music in the Dancing Princess sequence.

  200. William Moore

    The score was composed by Leigh Harline and is positively delightful!

    I have absolutely no issues with that statement. It was the hyperbolic "all time great scores" that was a head scratcher. Leigh Harline is a fine film composer but if I had to choose a best score from him, it would be Broken Lance (1954) which is a real beauty. I just don't see Harline's TWWOTBG score standing next to such all time great scores as Bernard Herrmann's Psycho, John Williams' E.T. The Extraterrestrial, Alex North's Spartacus, Elmer Bernstein's To Kill A Mockingird, Max Steiner's King Kong, Miklos Rozsa's Ben-Hur, John Barry's Out Of Africa, Dimitri Tiomkin's High Noon, David Raksin's The Bad And The Beautiful etc.

  201. Thomas T

    I just don't see Harline's TWWOTBG score standing next to such all time great scores as Bernard Herrmann's Psycho, John Williams' E.T. The Extraterrestrial, Alex North's Spartacus, Elmer Bernstein's To Kill A Mockingird, Max Steiner's King Kong, Miklos Rozsa's Ben-Hur, John Barry's Out Of Africa, Dimitri Tiomkin's High Noon, David Raksin's The Bad And The Beautiful etc.

    Possibly the OP was overly enthusiastic; Harline and Merrill didn't reach the heights of the scores you listed, but then the film isn't quite in the same league as those. Considering the subject matter I think both gentlemen matched the music to George Pal's film quite well. Leigh Harline also favored Pal's 7 FACES OF DR. LAO with an enjoyable score that also gets lots of play on my stereo. The music may not be profound or soul-stirring, but it's darn catchy! I find myself absent-mindedly whistleing tunes from both films.

  202. Thomas T

    Leigh Harline is a fine film composer but if I had to choose a best score from him, it would be Broken Lance (1954) which is a real beauty.

    What about Pinocchio? That's literally his most famous work.

  203. Lord Dalek

    What about Pinocchio? That's literally his most famous work.

    Also, while he didn’t write the full score, there’s also his work on Snow White (another Grimm story), which, along with Pinocchio, pretty much guarantees Harline a spot on the all-time great scores list.

  204. Dan_Shane

    Possibly the OP was overly enthusiastic; Harline and Merrill didn't reach the heights of the scores you listed, but then the film isn't quite in the same league as those. Considering the subject matter I think both gentlemen matched the music to George Pal's film quite well. Leigh Harline also favored Pal's 7 FACES OF DR. LAO with an enjoyable score that also gets lots of play on my stereo. The music may not be profound or soul-stirring, but it's darn catchy! I find myself absent-mindedly whistleing tunes from both films.

    Same here. Both Harline scores for these Pal films are among my favorite leisure listening discs, and I'm so glad to have the REAL soundtrack albums even if I had to wait decades after the movie releases to get them.

    Dr. Lao never had any kind of album. I wore out my Brothers Grimm storybook "soundtrack" LP just to get the bits and snatches of the background score and songs. I remember being so furious that I could buy a soundtrack album for The Yellow Rolls Royce but not for The Seven Faces of Dr. Lao. Never did understand the logic behind those releases.

  205. Lord Dalek

    What about Pinocchio? That's literally his most famous work.

    With rare exceptions, animated movies aren't my bag. Even as a kid, stuff like Snow White And The 7 Dwarfs, Pinocchio and Dumbo were a chore to sit through. The latter two aren't in my collection and the only reason Snow White is is because of sentimental reasons. It was my mother's all time favorite movie. Frankly, if I never hear When You Wish Upon A Star again, I'll be a happy guy! Curiously, I do like Japanese anime.

  206. Matt Hough

    Same here. Both Harline scores for these Pal films are among my favorite leisure listening discs, and I'm so glad to have the REAL soundtrack albums even if I had to wait decades after the movie releases to get them.

    Dr. Lao never had any kind of album. I wore out my Brothers Grimm storybook "soundtrack" LP just to get the bits and snatches of the background score and songs. I remember being so furious that I could buy a soundtrack album for The Yellow Rolls Royce but not for The Seven Faces of Dr. Lao. Never did understand the logic behind those releases.

    The IS a CD of the soundtrack music for "7 Faces." Released by FSM a few years back and it's great, and comparable to the FSM release of "Brothers Grimm" score. It was a limited edition release, so may be a few copies out there somewhere.

  207. William Moore

    The IS a CD of the soundtrack music for "7 Faces." Released by FSM a few years back and it's great, and comparable to the FSM release of "Brothers Grimm" score. It was a limited edition release, so may be a few copies out there somewhere.

    If you'll carefully reread my first sentence or two, you'll notice that I said "discs" meaning that I have both Grimm and Lao on CD which are among my favorite leisure listening discs. My rant was about having to wait decades to get the soundtrack to Lao instead of instantly being able to buy it on LP when the movie was first released in 1964. When I said Lao never had any kind of album, I meant a soundtrack LP. I guess I should have been clearer about it, but I thought the first paragraph established that I had the CD soundtracks to both Harline scores.

  208. William Moore

    The IS a CD of the soundtrack music for "7 Faces." Released by FSM a few years back and it's great, and comparable to the FSM release of "Brothers Grimm" score. It was a limited edition release, so may be a few copies out there somewhere.

    That is the one I have, and it's a gem.

  209. Matt Hough

    If you'll carefully reread my first sentence or two, you'll notice that I said "discs" meaning that I have both Grimm and Lao on CD which are among my favorite leisure listening discs. My rant was about having to wait decades to get the soundtrack to Lao instead of instantly being able to buy it on LP when the movie was first released in 1964. When I said Lao never had any kind of album, I meant a soundtrack LP. I guess I should have been clearer about it, but I thought the first paragraph established that I had the CD soundtracks to both Harline scores.

    OK, I guess I jumped to the incorrect conclusion. Just trying to be helpful.

  210. I just got an online message from a movie buff friend in the USA who says he was at the GRAND PRIX screening in the Cinerama Festival at Los Angeles' Cinerama Dome last night. He mentioned there was a guest speaker before the screening who claimed, "there ARE plans afoot for a Grimm restore" and that he was hoping we might see it at the next Cinerama Festival. Anyone else present for that announcement?

    It is always possible that it was misheard or a statement made by someone who is only wishing really hard. I am currently trying to get a clarification from my friend on the name of the guest speaker who made that claim.

  211. Sounds almost too good to be true. He may have said that there are no plans afoot but that a vintage print may be shown at the next festival.

    Of course I would prefer the story to be that work is underway and that we will have a digital version soon 🙂

  212. Cineman

    I just got an online message from a movie buff friend in the USA who says he was at the GRAND PRIX screening in the Cinerama Festival at Los Angeles' Cinerama Dome last night. He mentioned there was a guest speaker before the screening who claimed, "there ARE plans afoot for a Grimm restore" and that he was hoping we might see it at the next Cinerama Festival. Anyone else present for that announcement?

    It is always possible that it was misheard or a statement made by someone who is only wishing really hard. I am currently trying to get a clarification from my friend on the name of the guest speaker who made that claim.

    The only follow up reply I have gotten from my friend about the identity of the speaker is he could not remember the name but that he spoke for a while, walked away and then came back with, "Oh, and I almost forgot to tell you" the news about the Grimm restoration. The audience cheered.

    Again, maybe he was just some nut who walked to the front of the theater with a microphone or he was trying to gin up enthusiasm and buzz for something he is wishing will happen. But that is the report I got from my friend.

  213. DP 70

    What did Grand Prix look like in Digital Cinerama.

    My friend is not a techie in that way and only said that, as a movie, it had a "sloggy story but still quite fun". He did not elaborate on the pic and sound except to say it was thrilling when the curtains parted on Leo the Lion's roar and the music started. Oh, and that it was also thrilling to meet Eva Marie Saint, 90 years old and still cuts a fine figure. I live on the other side of the world from L.A. now, our waking hours are pretty much opposite from each other and this was just a quick social network message about his seeing GRAND PRIX and meeting Saint. I first mentioned it was a shame there is no effort to restore Brothers Grimm, since we were on the subject of Cinerama movies, and that was when he replied with the bit about the guest speaker who said there was one coming up.

  214. Brian Kidd

    Oh, man. You had to go and raise my optimism, didn't you? YOU MONSTER! 😉

    Lol. I tried to add as many qualifiers as possible to leave plenty of room for either a misunderstanding or merely wishful thinking on the part of the guest speaker. I was so hoping that someone on this forum had attended that screening of GRAND PRIX, heard the announcement and could either verify or clarify what was actually said. Is there a GRAND PRIX thread here? I should do a search and see if anyone else was there the other night.

    My friend is in the industry in that he is an actor and sometimes stage director, not famous as in a household name but has made a good living at for at least 45 years. I have known him that long as well. He had no particular interest in THE WONDERFUL WORLD OF THE BROTHERS GRIMM as a movie other than perhaps seeing it once on tv. I don't recall ever talking about it with him before. He does not know anything about this website and did not know anything about the discussion of it on this thread. I guess I am saying he had no dog in the hunt either way about whether or not Grimm gets a restoration, did not know that it needed one and that there is no digital version of it on home video.

    Honestly, if I had not mentioned what a shame it is that Grimm is not getting a restoration in one of my replies to his Facebook Message to me about his attending GRAND PRIX at the Cinerama Dome, I doubt he would have volunteered the information that he did about it. And the only reason he sent me a message about his going to the Cinerama Dome is because he and I attended the 35th (?) Anniversary of IT'S A MAD, MAD, MAD, MAD WORLD there back in the day and Stanley Kramer and his lovely wife sat directly but two rows behind us along with a handful of other stars of the movie sprinkled around the house. lol. So we have a history with what is going on at the Cinerama Dome and that was his only purpose in mentioning his attendance to me the other night.

  215. Cineman

    The only follow up reply I have gotten from my friend about the identity of the speaker is he could not remember the name but that he spoke for a while, walked away and then came back with, "Oh, and I almost forgot to tell you" the news about the Grimm restoration. The audience cheered.

    Again, maybe he was just some nut who walked to the front of the theater with a microphone or he was trying to gin up enthusiasm and buzz for something he is wishing will happen. But that is the report I got from my friend.

    The man with the mic wasn't David Strohmaier, was it?

  216. William Moore

    The man with the mic wasn't David Strohmaier, was it?

    I can not say since I wasn't there, just relatng what my friend who was there said about it. He doesn't remember the name and did not have a flyer stating who it was. I assume he had to be a representative of the Cinerama Festival, not a guest speaker about GRAND PRIX in particular.

  217. Cineman

    I can not say since I wasn't there, just relatng what my friend who was there said about it. He doesn't remember the name and did not have a flyer stating who it was. I assume he had to be a representative of the Cinerama Festival, not a guest speaker about GRAND PRIX in particular.

    Well, I know that Mr. Strohmaier is involved with the Cinerama Dome, so since he referenced "Brothers Grimm", it could have been him. Here's hoping anyway!

  218. William Moore

    Well, I know that Mr. Strohmaier is involved with the Cinerama Dome, so since he referenced "Brothers Grimm", it could have been him. Here's hoping anyway!

    He also posts here so you might ask him in his own thread about the 55th anniversary of the Cinerama Dome. If there is anything to that story Dave would surely know about it.

  219. Stephen_J_H

    For those who have been following this thread, I would strongly encourage you to listen to the latest episode of the Warner Archive Podcast, as in the letters section at the end, there is a serious discussion of WWOTBG and the difficulties and financial realities of a project like this. Link:http://itunes.apple.com/ca/podcast/titanic-tv-terrors/id310063354?i=1000421549533&mt=2

    I can't seem to get it to play. Do they post a transcript anywhere or even have these podcasts on YouTube?

  220. You can view it here. October 9th broadcast.

    http://www.acast.com/warnerarchivepodcast

    George Feltenstein indicated that the only economically feasible way for WAC to publish the film on blu-ray was to do a scan of the reduction element, which didn't meet the quality standards for a WB blu-ray release. Feltenstein even brought up David Strohmaier's post as confirmation of his POV. I don't believe he actually read the post, since Dave described doing a restoration similar to what he did with the Windjammer restoration, which was released on blu-ray through Flicker Alley this year.

  221. I’ll always keep my hopes up for a Smilebox Blu-ray of Brothers Grimm. If I were Lucas or Spielberg, I’d even pay for the restoration. I’m so grateful I got to see it in Cinerama at the Dome in October 2012, another thing concerning this film that was supposed to be impossible and would never happen.

    A previous poster mentioned The Dancing Princess sequence. For sheer excitement, I’d rate it near the top of all sequences designed to show how thrilling Cinerama can be.

    As for Leigh Harline’s score, several people (including me) were whistling the main theme as they were exiting the Dome screening. I don’t think I’d ever experienced something like that before.

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